Offensive strategy question...

[bbneutralfan]

Josh Stowers I can't seem to find your name anywhere on the Marshall football coaching staff. Why is that? You seem to be the - in your mind, the "official" unofficial spokesperson and all-around know it all. If you are not part of the program perhaps you should apply. Obviously you know far more than I do regarding Marshall football. But hey, Josh, I'm only 70 and been watching MU since 1961 so I'm still learning.

 

[Josh Stowers]

Josh Stowers I can't seem to find your name anywhere on the Marshall football coaching staff. Why is that? You seem to be the - in your mind, the "official" unofficial spokesperson and all-around know it all. If you are not part of the program perhaps you should apply. Obviously you know far more than I do regarding Marshall football. But hey, Josh, I'm only 70 and been watching MU since 1961 so I'm still learning.

As someone who witnesses open and closed practices in and out of season, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of what happens on the field. It's the stuff that goes on behind closed doors that means the most though.

Assuming Gaines or anyone else for that matter is better than Chase just because they're more athletic is simply wrong.

For starters, Gaines isn't even working out with the QB's anymore. And, I have nothing against Xavier, Isaiah, or Garet but it's not even a close race between those guys and Chase.

 

[bbneutralfan]

Josh do you help coach QBs? Have you ever played QB? Better yet - be truthful - have you ever played football? Just from pure observation from watching practise I'm not sure how that qualifies you any better than any of the rest of us who watch practice. Just saying.

 

[Josh Stowers]

Josh do you help coach QBs? Have you ever played QB? Better yet - be truthful - have you ever played football? Just from pure observation from watching practise I'm not sure how that qualifies you any better than any of the rest of us who watch practice. Just saying.

No.

No.

Yes, multiple years.

Simply watching open practices doesn't qualify myself any better than anyone, but my access to closed practices and the coaching staff allows me quite a bit.

 

[chuck1069]

This is an interesting thread, respectful and informal. Thanks everyone!

The Leg/ Cato era was successful in my opinion for several reasons. Just to mention a few.
1) Cato's will to win, athleticism, mental preparation(film study to read defensive schemes to able Bill Legs counter scheme) pretty good arm too
2) Tommy Shuler, Wow, him and Cato really had a connection! How many 3rd and longs did they convert to keep drives alive!
3) schedule strength, was this why we were so good in those days?
Liked to have seen them play a stronger schedule!

 

[oldeherd]

I don't recall that and nothing we do is predicated on the read-option. We don't recruit for it and we don't run it. Maybe in 2015 when Birdsong was going to be the starter or we were trying the AJ Graham thing or maybe the summer we thought we were going to get some Blake Frohnapfel packages (still pissed about that), the zone-read probably was a big part of those and might be where those comments you're referring to came from. But outside of that, I haven't seen us be serious about it.

This is basically the concept I see us using:

It's an Inside Zone play where the TE/H-back (Yuracheck) is often the backside blocker on the end we leave unblocked. Just because the QB isn't a threat to run doesn't mean this play isn't effective because there's still some action for that backside end to read. Yuracheck could be coming to block, passing him to arc block someone at the next level, or releasing out into the flat on a RPO, which is where there would actually be a "read" on the play. Except instead of Litton keeping to run if the unblocked end crashes down on the RB, Litton is keeping to throw.

For starters, how many times in this so called scheme have we seen Marshall complete a pass to an open Yurachek out in the flat? Few, if any.

Personally, would much rather see us using Yuracheck more like Miami used their tight end. Delay off the line of scrimmage, quick seam routes up the field, or maybe more on quick slants. But since Legg stubbornly refuse to use much of the field, across the middle, seam, slant and post routes, in the great majority of our pass patterns, we don't see Yuracheck on many of those routes.

And as for any "read option" for our QB in this scheme, I guess ole Cato just said to "heck" with this crap cause he would from time to time effectively pull the ball back from the running back and scamper often unnoticed and untouched around the end for good yardage, often extending a drive, gaining a first down, etc. Of course, usually ending up with one of his patented "ugly" slides!!

If we don't have such a threat with Chase, then often what you see is the unblocked crashing end putting heat on BOTH the RB and QB as our play is slow developing and results in something like the Akron hit on Litton last season

 

[WV_Celt]

As someone who witnesses open and closed practices in and out of season, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of what happens on the field. It's the stuff that goes on behind closed doors that means the most though.

Assuming Gaines or anyone else for that matter is better than Chase just because they're more athletic is simply wrong.

For starters, Gaines isn't even working out with the QB's anymore. And, I have nothing against Xavier, Isaiah, or Garet but it's not even a close race between those guys and Chase.

I'm guessing you know and understand only about a tenth of what you claim to know.

 

[Josh Stowers]

I'm guessing you know and understand only about a tenth of what you claim to know.

Well, the only things I've claimed to know is that Litton gives us a far better chance to win than any other QB on the roster and that athletic ability (alone) doesn't equate to a successful QB.

As far as understanding goes, you're probably right and I've been open in saying that the staff has forgotten more football than I (or anyone on this board) will ever know. With that said, I attend practices, speak to the coaches candidly, have access to two (current) P5 coaches' playbooks, and have read a number of articles on the principles of coaching the spread option. That's more than most can say, that much I know.

 

[Dreh_Nagi_HC_IM]

Well, I'm going to read this one tonight during happy hour, so I'll be the smartest football brain on the forum.

 

[WV_Celt]

Well, the only things I've claimed to know is that Litton gives us a far better chance to win than any other QB on the roster and that athletic ability (alone) doesn't equate to a successful QB.

As far as understanding goes, you're probably right and I've been open in saying that the staff has forgotten more football than I (or anyone on this board) will ever know. With that said, I attend practices, speak to the coaches candidly, have access to two (current) P5 coaches' playbooks, and have read a number of articles on the principles of coaching the spread option. That's more than most can say, that much I know.

Sure thing, chief.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

Another year in the system, Green may be our best option at QB.

 

[sistersville]

Im 57 and watched and played football for 12 yrs and coached 20. MU coaches, especially the younger ones ought to call me.

 

[HerdFan76]

This is an interesting thread, respectful and informal. Thanks everyone!
!

You got informative right.

 

[JudgeDD]

Im 57 and watched and played football for 12 yrs and coached 20. MU coaches, especially the younger ones ought to call me.

TIC?

 

[sistersville]

Bottom line. Qb with an average arm with zero change of running. Backs and line Not working together. A train wreck. Doc should have had another qb ready to play. Hes give litton 20 changes to keep the job. Are they related?

 

[THUNDERGround]

Im 57 and watched and played football for 12 yrs and coached 20. MU coaches, especially the younger ones ought to call me.

Hell, I got Marshall to a #1 ranking and won the National Championship in NCAA 16 (Heisman level). I'll be your wingman.

 

[herdfan93]

If CL were the same size as say Cato I think Doc would've been scrambling to find another starter. I think Doc is totally enamored with CL's measurables and not so much on his play.

 

[Sean Hammond]

If CL were the same size as say Cato I think Doc would've been scrambling to find another starter. I think Doc is totally enamored with CL's measurables and not so much on his play.

Could be some truth to that.

But honestly, it's more about Doc coming off a 3 win season and him having only ONE QB on the roster who he can somewhat count on to get wins and keep his job.

If we had a new coach this year, Litton would be treated similar to how AJ Graham was when Doc arrived and we'd be starting fresh with Green. But Doc doesn't have the luxury of hitting the reset button at the QB position, which is what probably needed to be done.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

Problem with CL, he can't extend plays if the pocket breaks down. A team has to have a QB that can do that.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

Complaining about an offense (following a win), after the team's first game which involved five new (first time) starters. You're right, it tells you something.

Yes your right.. tell me I should thank special teams as I previously posted.. and I'll include thank you defense for the added points... offense showed me it's going to be a long season..

 

[Sean Hammond]

Here's a couple RPOs from the Penn St game. QB keeps to throw, not run.

 

[pdbailey]

Im 57 and watched and played football for 12 yrs and coached 20. MU coaches, especially the younger ones ought to call me.

Anyone want to re-phrase their comments about Litton earlier this week on here today. There were quite a few stupid statements made on here that should be erased.

 

[Josh Stowers]

I'm just here for today's Chase Litton bashing.

 

[Sean Hammond]

Anyone want to re-phrase their comments about Litton earlier this week on here today. There were quite a few stupid statements made on here that should be erased.

Nah, I stick by mine. When 248 yards goes to one WR and 102 is spread out to everyone else, it shows the air attack is still lacking outside of that incredible (NFL) talent...and it was questionable whether or not the dude would be healthy enough to play #BEASTMODE. NC St did score 27 unanswered points, so the inconsistency is still there. He made some GREAT throws to Brady, I give him credit there and have never questioned his arm talent, but the lack of consistency is still concerning to me.

Chase looked better than he did week one. Hopefully he keeps it up. But he and the offense still has a way to go. Also, to be fair, a below average running game would be an improvement for us right now and would help him out A LOT.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

Yes, he should be getting votes for Heisman.
Still won't run, missed a few key throws but much better.

Let's continue to improve.

 

[raleighherdfan]

His mechanics are consistently terrible. He looks down a receiver. He looks terrified to take a hit.

Not to say he can't improve but he needs a real QB coach and an offensive scheme that fits his potential.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

Chase isn't the best we've have ever seen..... I think chase still stares receivers to much, he never runs, typically over throws deep ball, and he's running bill leggs crappy limited offensive scheme.... so there is my chase bashing... the guy could be better in many aspects of the game and it's almost like he has to be told every little move to make.... not the playmaker Cato was for sure.....

 

[oldeherd]

Sure thing, chief.

C'mon guys. I believe Josh has covered all bases except . . . . . . its unclear whether he has stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently!!

 

[goherdorgohome2]

So, I say all of that to say that while there can be plenty of criticisms about what we do, I think there is some sound reasoning in what we do...even though we may not agree with it haha.[/QUOTE]


Another reason being an inside guy blinds you from the problems... our offense sucks, it's crap, it's predictable, it has no tempo, it has no misdirection, and bill legg needs fired. Quit trying to find the "sound reasoning in what we do" you will never find it........

 

[goherdorgohome2]

100% endorsement, Judge.

The thing about the unblocked end is a concern of mine too. But I wonder if our goal on that is to sacrifice a 4-5 yard gain for the potential of a 20+ yard gain. If the end crashes, the RB is still almost certain to get back to the LOS or 1-2 yard gain. But if that unblocked end doesn't crash and make the play, we got #s like crazy. It would just be nice to see us break one of those off, but I think that gets back to our offense just being clunky & out of sorts. Seems like there's too much thinking and not enough reading/reacting, IMO. In the Cato days, it was fast & crisp. If the D made a mistake, they usually paid for at least a 10 yard gain.

There's still some action we use that can freeze that unblocked end. Yuracheck with that wham action is one. We kick the tackle up into the second level as a lead blocker while Yuracheck blocks the "unblocked" end. Also, when that end automatically crashes from Chase's right side, it COMPLETELY opens up the whole side of the field for Chase on PA rollouts. So we're basically allowing an unblocked end to run himself out of the play, which gives us numbers.


So, I say all of that to say that while there can be plenty of criticisms about what we do, I think there is some sound reasoning in what we do...even though we may not agree with it haha.

Another reason being an inside guy blinds you from the problems... our offense sucks, it's crap, it's predictable, it has no tempo, it has no misdirection, and bill legg needs fired. Quit trying to find the "sound reasoning in what we do" you will never find it..

 

[Sean Hammond]

Another reason being an inside guy blinds you from the problems... our offense sucks, it's crap, it's predictable, it has no tempo, it has no misdirection, and bill legg needs fired. Quit trying to find the "sound reasoning in what we do" you will never find it..

How am I an "inside guy"?

I posted 2 plays in this thread that shows something I'd like for us to start incorporating. It would be a way to utilize our second best offensive player (Yurachek), which we've done a TERRIBLE job of so far this season and it's a way to use the zone read with a non-running threat at QB using RPOs. I also also criticized the current QB because while I think he has the arm talent, will never give us the consistency we need on offense.

Yes, there's plenty to criticize about our offense. I do it all the time. But if it was as predictable as you (and many others) claim it is, I doubt we would have rolled up 400+ yards on the road vs a decent ACC defense. Now, that offense also allowed them to rip off 27 UNANSWERED points as well. So, yes, I can criticize while admitting when there's some positives. It's fun to not look at things in such black and white terms. Usually the truth lies in the middle.


Also, it would be cool if you would actually explain what you think is wrong with the offense, what you would change about it, how you would change it, etc instead of using vague terms like "sucks", "crap", and "predictable." Dude, that's how my wife complains about football. Step ya game up.

 

[Josh Stowers]

Also, it would be cool if you would actually explain what you think is wrong with the offense, what you would change about it, how you would change it, etc instead of using vague terms like "sucks", "crap", and "predictable."

I came here to post this.

It should also be noted that I've stated the offense is no well oiled machine, but I see plenty of things to be positive about.

And apparently our offense that "sucks, is crap, is predictable, has no tempo, and no misdirection" was doing something right against NCSU. We're one of three teams in the last two years to eclipse 450 or more yards against their defense. The other two teams are Louisville and Florida State.

 

[THUNDERGround]

And apparently our offense that "sucks, is crap, is predictable, has no tempo, and no misdirection" was doing something right against NCSU. .

You're right. The offense did do some really good things - for 25 minutes. Then they took away Tyre and we mustered ZERO points and gave up 27 over the next 35.

 

[Josh Stowers]

You're right. The offense did do some really good things - for 25 minutes. Then they took away Tyre and we mustered ZERO points and gave up 27 over the next 35.

Well, we cost ourselves no less than 10 points with mistakes. Supposed hold on Davis' return and Beardall's bad snap on Vedvik's missed FG.

We were in scoring territory again later when Brown was flagged for the personal foul.

Like I said before, it's no well oiled machine, but it's much improved and will continue to get better.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

For this team and program to get back to the point we all want, the offense will have play well all 4 quarters, not just 2. That's the case for all units.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

How am I an "inside guy"?

I posted 2 plays in this thread that shows something I'd like for us to start incorporating. It would be a way to utilize our second best offensive player (Yurachek), which we've done a TERRIBLE job of so far this season and it's a way to use the zone read with a non-running threat at QB using RPOs. I also also criticized the current QB because while I think he has the arm talent, will never give us the consistency we need on offense.

Yes, there's plenty to criticize about our offense. I do it all the time. But if it was as predictable as you (and many others) claim it is, I doubt we would have rolled up 400+ yards on the road vs a decent ACC defense. Now, that offense also allowed them to rip off 27 UNANSWERED points as well. So, yes, I can criticize while admitting when there's some positives. It's fun to not look at things in such black and white terms. Usually the truth lies in the middle.


Also, it would be cool if you would actually explain what you think is wrong with the offense, what you would change about it, how you would change it, etc instead of using vague terms like "sucks", "crap", and "predictable." Dude, that's how my wife complains about football. Step ya game up.

As I have stated many times... first fire bill legg, just because he had good games against a mid level unranked teams doesn't mean he's worth keeping...

next I said that it appeared legg Had added some plays for a grand total of about 10 maybe, while chase was hitting targets ( thank goodness) it's not going to happen every game and if legg can not find some kind of other option then chase on fire then we struggle...

I would like to see chase under center with Anderson at full back or as a lead blocker at some point, or more of a two back "misdirection" type of thing. Would also like to see the more "up tempo" style we use to have, instead of the everyone line up at stare at the coaches waiting on the play "crap", they should call 2-3 plays at once and go quick snap. A QB keep even if it's a broken play scramble, I know chase isn't The best runner but my goodness got to make some LB's respect that option. I like our receivers much talent there. So maybe we could be less "predictable" if we actually ran plays that have different formations between the tackles....

Anyway that is what I would change and what I think is wrong with our offense. If you need my help doc offer is still on the table..!