Rick Stockstill

[oldeherd]

As usual, Y.A.G. throws out verbiage as unchallenged "fact". With a larger overall athletic budget at MTSU, several million more, than MU, what are all of MU's advantages over Stockstill and his program? Our out of the way location in a declining Appalachian city with poor major airline connections? Or our close proximity to recruiting hotbeds like Georgia, Alabama, Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, etc.? Our close proximity to an economically vibrant and growing urban area like Nashville?

So, you love Stockstill because of some off the field deeds? Great "logic", Moron!! I guess he loves his wife, pets his dog, and wipes off his toilet seat after use, too.

Fact is you want to limit the comparison between the two coaches for the first 3 years that both were head coaches in CUSA, i.e., 2013-2015. Why? Compare the two for the entire period that they have been conference competitors, 2013 to 2018. Conference records: Stockstill 27-14, Doc 28-15. No YAGGY, again in your warped concept of logic, NO advantage to Stockstill there. In fact, take away Doc's two championship games in 2013, 2014, and his record in conference would be 27-14. The same as Stockstill's, YAG. E-Q-U-A-L, there I said it slowly, so what miniscule brain you may have can comprehend, but I have my doubts.

Don't say crap about MTSU's schedules, opponents, etc., YAG, he's paid, like Doc, to coach against whatever schedule his AD puts before him. Since 2013, Stockstill's overall record is 38-30, Holliday is 47-23. Oh, what the shit does it matter what kind of program Stockstill found at MTSU in 2006, since we're only evaluating each coach based on their years as CUSA competitors, which began in 2013?

Again, Doc has been 28-15 in CUSA, Stockstill 27-14 since 2013. Why the 2 extra games for Doc (43 to 41; I did the Math for you, Y.A.G., we don't have all night for you to remove your shoes and socks)? Well, Doc's teams have been in TWO CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES in the Period at Issue!!! Isn't that the objective, numb nuts, of conference play? Certainly more important than just getting Bowl eligible, moron, in this era of ever expanding numbers of bowls and bowl eligible teams every year staying at home, it seems.

So, let's recap. Since 2013, Doc with 2 championship game appearances, and 1 championship. Rick, Zero, Zilch, Nada. Advantage: Doc

Since 2013, Doc's overall record, 47-23; Rick, 38-30. Advantage: Doc

Since 2013, head to head, Doc 3-2 vs. MTSU; Rick 2-3 vs. MU: Advantage: Doc - - - is your feeble brain beginning to detect ANY pattern here, Y.A.G.?

Since 2013, Doc 4-0 in Bowl WINS, not Bowl appearances, not Bowl eligibility, but WINS, Y.A.G.!! Rick, 1-4. Advantage: Say it with me, now, Y.A.G., D- -0- -C!!

Could go on with more FACTS, like which coach has had the most 10 wins or more seasons since 2013, Y.A.G., but a little afraid of totally overloading your feeble and already overtaxed mind!!

Nice try, but Good Night!!!

 

[Blueraider_Mike]

MT fan checking in...this is a great thread! A classic.

I think everyone is right to a degree...at the end of the day I do believe Marshall is the better program. As to who is the better coach, who the heck knows.

At MT, we do think Stock is a good man and he cares for his players but we feel like he has under performed when it really mattered. Its been 13 years, I think we have seen his ceiling. I don't know how you qualify markets, ability to accept partial qualifiers, budget, tradition, etc.

Our biggest beef with Stock is his "lifetime" contract, you can't blame him they offered it and he signed. As for me, I would love him to finish this year on a high note and retire.

It looks like both fan bases are ready for a change - that is something that all of us can agree on.

 

[Herdmeister]

MT fan checking in...this is a great thread! A classic.

I think everyone is right to a degree...at the end of the day I do believe Marshall is the better program. As to who is the better coach, who the heck knows.

At MT, we do think Stock is a good man and he cares for his players but we feel like he has under performed when it really mattered. Its been 13 years, I think we have seen his ceiling. I don't know how you qualify markets, ability to accept partial qualifiers, budget, tradition, etc.

Our biggest beef with Stock is his "lifetime" contract, you can't blame him they offered it and he signed. As for me, I would love him to finish this year on a high note and retire.

It looks like both fan bases are ready for a change - that is something that all of us can agree on.

Good post. I agree on ALL points!

 

[RhinoD]

Both guys are above average, but not elite... I don't think that should surprise any fan of either team.

 

[herdalicious]

No, his point is rendered moot [OPINION] by not being able to acknowledge that Marshall gives a coach a far greater chance of success than MTSU does [OPINION], yet Stockstill has a significantly better record than Doc does. [OPINION]

His point is rendered moot [OPINION] by ignoring that Stock is about to have his ninth bowl eligible team in ten years after taking over a program that hadn't had a winning season in five years [FACT WITH TENUOUS IMPACT ON ARGUMENT], yet claims that Stock shouldn't have a job.[STRAW MAN INFERENCE]

 

[mlblack16.]

Well this thread ain't ending anytime soon, LOL

 

[i am herdman]

That's my beef. Signing these coaches to these long term contracts which puts the university in a bad financial position.

Absurd

 

[Herdmeister]

That's my beef. Signing these coaches to these long term contracts which puts the university in a bad financial position.

Absurd

Kids most often sign because of the coach. With that in mind the coach needs to be able to tell the kid he will be there for him his entire career. Of course we know things happen to cause the coach to leave but it is a selling tool for sure

 

[19MU88]

As usual, Y.A.G. throws out verbiage as unchallenged "fact". With a larger overall athletic budget at MTSU, several million more, than MU, what are all of MU's advantages over Stockstill and his program? Our out of the way location in a declining Appalachian city with poor major airline connections? Or our close proximity to recruiting hotbeds like Georgia, Alabama, Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, etc.? Our close proximity to an economically vibrant and growing urban area like Nashville?

So, you love Stockstill because of some off the field deeds? Great "logic", Moron!! I guess he loves his wife, pets his dog, and wipes off his toilet seat after use, too.

Fact is you want to limit the comparison between the two coaches for the first 3 years that both were head coaches in CUSA, i.e., 2013-2015. Why? Compare the two for the entire period that they have been conference competitors, 2013 to 2018. Conference records: Stockstill 27-14, Doc 28-15. No YAGGY, again in your warped concept of logic, NO advantage to Stockstill there. In fact, take away Doc's two championship games in 2013, 2014, and his record in conference would be 27-14. The same as Stockstill's, YAG. E-Q-U-A-L, there I said it slowly, so what miniscule brain you may have can comprehend, but I have my doubts.

Don't say crap about MTSU's schedules, opponents, etc., YAG, he's paid, like Doc, to coach against whatever schedule his AD puts before him. Since 2013, Stockstill's overall record is 38-30, Holliday is 47-23. Oh, what the shit does it matter what kind of program Stockstill found at MTSU in 2006, since we're only evaluating each coach based on their years as CUSA competitors, which began in 2013?

Again, Doc has been 28-15 in CUSA, Stockstill 27-14 since 2013. Why the 2 extra games for Doc (43 to 41; I did the Math for you, Y.A.G., we don't have all night for you to remove your shoes and socks)? Well, Doc's teams have been in TWO CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES in the Period at Issue!!! Isn't that the objective, numb nuts, of conference play? Certainly more important than just getting Bowl eligible, moron, in this era of ever expanding numbers of bowls and bowl eligible teams every year staying at home, it seems.

So, let's recap. Since 2013, Doc with 2 championship game appearances, and 1 championship. Rick, Zero, Zilch, Nada. Advantage: Doc

Since 2013, Doc's overall record, 47-23; Rick, 38-30. Advantage: Doc

Since 2013, head to head, Doc 3-2 vs. MTSU; Rick 2-3 vs. MU: Advantage: Doc - - - is your feeble brain beginning to detect ANY pattern here, Y.A.G.?

Since 2013, Doc 4-0 in Bowl WINS, not Bowl appearances, not Bowl eligibility, but WINS, Y.A.G.!! Rick, 1-4. Advantage: Say it with me, now, Y.A.G., D- -0- -C!!

Could go on with more FACTS, like which coach has had the most 10 wins or more seasons since 2013, Y.A.G., but a little afraid of totally overloading your feeble and already overtaxed mind!!

Nice try, but Good Night!!!

excellent rebuttal. I particularly liked the use of moron in the response.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

As usual, Y.A.G. throws out verbiage as unchallenged "fact". With a larger overall athletic budget at MTSU, several million more, than MU, what are all of MU's advantages over Stockstill and his program?

We've gone over the advantages numerous times. Is your memory that bad? Marshall has far better football facilities. Marshall has far better fan support. Marshall has far less competition in the region for the casual fan. Marshall has a better assistant salary pool. Marshall has a better history and brand. Marshall has far easier academic requirements. Marshall allows non-qualifiers.

Now, lets look at the advantages MTSU has. They are located in a better recruiting region (that immediate region produces more/better football recruits than WV. However, that only really matters if a recruit wants to stay very close to home. MTSU has a bigger enrollment, but that has already been factored in as an advantage for Marshall due to better fan support. Your claim that the overall athletic department has a bigger budget has no relevance unless you can somehow prove that MTSU is spending a significant amount more on football than Marshall does.

Our out of the way location in a declining Appalachian city with poor major airline connections? Or our close proximity to recruiting hotbeds like Georgia, Alabama, Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, etc.? Our close proximity to an economically vibrant and growing urban area like Nashville?

Well, now you're simply contradicting Banker's argument which is bad considering he was arguing for your side. You just argued that MTSU has much higher competition seeing that they are a lot closer to major cities like Atlanta, Memphis, Nashville, etc. But you're also showing your ignorance to college athletics - those schools closer to major metropolitan areas tend to have lower fan support/interest in athletics. That's because those major areas provide so many other activities besides college football. Further, many times, those areas also are home to an NFL team. So in terms of competition for fans, MTSU has to fight with the Tennessee Titans down the road and the Atlanta Falcons not far away (not to mention the numerous other FBS teams far closer than the nearest one to Marshall).

But, yes, in terms of recruiting location, I already stated (in this post and previous ones) that MTSU has the advantage. Is your memory that bad at your age? However, as I said, an average recruit isn't going to choose a school simply based on being two hours closer to it than another school unless he is the rare one who wants to stay very, very close to home.

So, you love Stockstill because of some off the field deeds? Great "logic", Moron!! I guess he loves his wife, pets his dog, and wipes off his toilet seat after use, too.

This discussion was centered around the comment that it was a surprise that Stockstill had not been fired at MTSU. I showed that he is highly respected by all there, much of it regarding the type of program he runs (which includes few off-field problems, highest APR turnaround in the country, etc.). As a college coach at a place that has no history of success before him, below average support, and no major advantages over the rest of the conference, a guy who gets bowl eligible 9 out of 10 years and runs a class program is far from somebody who should be worried about their job security. Thankfully, the MTSU administration is smart enough to realize that. And, yes, how a coach runs a program and acts in the community is very important to athletic administration. It is very logical, but again, you are a below average person in terms of intelligence, so you wouldn't understand that.

Fact is you want to limit the comparison between the two coaches for the first 3 years that both were head coaches in CUSA, i.e., 2013-2015. Why?

What are you talking about, moron? Where have I ever said that? I agreed with Herdalicious' argument that the best and most logical comparison would be looking at how each coach has performed against the same schedule - those years both have been in Conference USA. In no way does that "limit the comparison . . . for the first 3 years both were head coaches in C-USA." Christ. You're so god-damned dumb that you can't even read and are simply wasting time now.

Compare the two for the entire period that they have been conference competitors, 2013 to 2018.

!

Uh, yeah, stupid. That has been my argument and what I have been doing the entire time. You're too dumb to understand that. You're so dumb that just because you don't like the results of what I prove, you try to argue against me even though you're arguing the same exact thing.

Compare the two for the entire period that they have been conference competitors, 2013 to 2018. Conference records: Stockstill 27-14, Doc 28-15. No YAGGY, again in your warped concept of logic, NO advantage to Stockstill there.

Are you really this dumb? You just said that Stock' has a record of 27-14 while Doc is 28-15, then you claim there is "NO advantage to Stockstill there." You realize that 27-14 is a better record than 28-15, right? That is an advantage, however so slight, for Stockstill.

But, like usual, you're too dumb to evaluate that: Stock has a slight advantage while facing the same schedule (with the exception of the divisional crossover games). However, Stockstill is winning that slight advantage coaching at a place that is far harder to win at than Doc is.

I asked this question and nobody answered it: putting your personal allegiances/preferences aside, if your only goal was to win as many C-USA football games as possible, where would you choose to coach - MTSU or Marshall? The advantages Marshall provides to winning in football (again, we've gone over that list numerous times) would lead every coach to choose Marshall over MTSU. In other words, Stock' has a slightly better record against the same competition while doing it at a place where it is harder to win than what Doc has. That means Stockstill is doing better!

Don't say crap about MTSU's schedules, opponents, etc., YAG, he's paid, like Doc, to coach against whatever schedule his AD puts before him. Since 2013, Stockstill's overall record is 38-30, Holliday is 47-23. Oh, what the shit does it matter what kind of program Stockstill found at MTSU in 2006, since we're only evaluating each coach based on their years as CUSA competitors,
!

Your arguments keep getting worse. You claim that we should only look at overall record instead of factoring in major things like schedules. Well, my youth league coach won seven league championships in a row. Clearly, he is a better football coach than Nick Saban, because Saban never did that. Who cares about schedules and the teams they are playing, right? See how absurdly dumb your argument is?

As I have already stated, MTSU's schedules have been far harder than Doc's in almost every year. Hell, in multiple years, the gap is immense . . . 35+ places harder for MTSU. Clearly, comparing overall record is absurdly illogical without noting the major influence and disparity of strength of schedules on win/loss records.

You should know that already. When C-USA was tougher, Doc's records were very similar to Snyder's. When C-USA became drastically easier, Doc's records greatly immediately greatly improved. In other words, the strength of schedule had a huge factor on his record. Doh!

Well, Doc's teams have been in TWO CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES in the Period at Issue!!! Isn't that the objective, numb nuts, of conference play? Certainly more important than just getting Bowl eligible, moron, in this era of ever expanding numbers of bowls and bowl eligible teams every year staying at home, it seems.

Yes, Doc has won one conference championship more than Stockstill. Doc has also coached in the conference three more years and has greater advantages being at Marshall than Stockstill does being at MTSU. We've gone over that.

All of your other attempts are arguments that have already been dismissed.

None of this is an indictment on Doc. I was one of the few who were defending him against the numerous people who were wanting him fired after going 3-9 after he had just had three straight 10 win seasons. But to claim he has done better than Stockstill considering Stock has a slightly better record while having a more difficult path to success is almost as absurd as saying Stockstill should be fired.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

I don't know how you qualify markets, ability to accept partial qualifiers, budget, tradition, etc.
.

It's not difficult. Both schools have been playing FBS football for almost the same number of years. Marshall has accomplished much more during that time. Markets? MTSU has a better recruiting region - that's easily seen in the number of athletes signing to FBS schools within a few hours drive of each school. However, MTSU has a hell of a lot more competition in the region in terms of recruiting and in terms of fan support. Accepting non-qualifiers is a huge game changer. If not the case, Marshall wouldn't spend so much resources recruiting guys who may never play a snap. Marshall has a much easier path at winning than MTSU currently when everything is taken into consideration.

As for me, I would love him to finish this year on a high note and retire.

It looks like both fan bases are ready for a change - that is something that all of us can agree on.

What do you think are reasonable expectations for MTSU football? He has finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd in a seven team division. FAU and Marshall are simply leaps ahead of MTSU in terms of football advantages.

Have you seen your football facilities? Are you guys still using "luxury boxes" that are open air spots in between the first and second deck with a curtain on them that include plastic planters for aesthetics? Is your football team's lounge area still just like the waiting area at your local Walmart auto center? Is your locker room still very small and very average with nothing unique or that even puts it at the average C-USA level?

Finishing 2nd and 3rd in the division at MTSU is good work. What do you expect given the disadvantages MTSU has compared with other schools in the division?

 

[W-S HerdFan]

MT fan checking in...this is a great thread! A classic.

I think everyone is right to a degree...at the end of the day I do believe Marshall is the better program. As to who is the better coach, who the heck knows.

At MT, we do think Stock is a good man and he cares for his players but we feel like he has under performed when it really mattered. Its been 13 years, I think we have seen his ceiling. I don't know how you qualify markets, ability to accept partial qualifiers, budget, tradition, etc.

Our biggest beef with Stock is his "lifetime" contract, you can't blame him they offered it and he signed. As for me, I would love him to finish this year on a high note and retire.

It looks like both fan bases are ready for a change - that is something that all of us can agree on.

Blue Raider Mike - we have reached (as usual) an impasse......YAGS has not referenced (idnb) the "lifetime contract" aspect of Stockstill's situation. Would that not be the greatest advantage of all? He has free reign to put whatever quality product he wants to on the field, w/o having any concern about his job security. If Doc had that set-up at Marshall, would we as a fan base be happy about it? HELL.....NO.....WE.....WOULD...NOT...BE. Talk about an advantage...that is game, set & match; it's all she wrote; stick a fork in it; it's a walk-off; Stock wins, Stock wins, STOCK WINS!!!!; and that'll do it; it's over; whitewash; there are many others........

 

[RhinoD]

If I have learned anything from this thread it's this...

I cannot wait for next week's Venn diagram of Bobby Wilder vs. Doc!

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

Blue Raider Mike - we have reached (as usual) an impasse......YAGS has not referenced (idnb) the "lifetime contract" aspect of Stockstill's situation. Would that not be the greatest advantage of all? He has free reign to put whatever quality product he wants to on the field, w/o having any concern about his job security.

You try so hard to be witty and the result is always sh!tty.

What does his alleged (and incorrect) lifetime contract have to do with the discussion of 1) whether he should be fired 2) how he has done compared to Doc? It has no relevance.

Since you (and it appears the MTSU guest) are clueless, it isn't a lifetime contract as has been presented. For the contract to roll over, Stockstill has to reach at least three (I believe that is all of them) goals . . . a certain APR score, no major NCAA violations, and winning, I believe, six conference games and/or having a winning record.

That is far from a lifetime contract. It means he needs to get bowl eligible, at the least, every year for the contract to be renewed. That would be a goal that Doc would have failed nearly 50% of the time.

 

[Blueraider_Mike]

Good question on our expectations...there are only two coaches in all of FBS who have been coaching for 13 years that don't have a conference championship...Stock and the Northwestern coach. The two we have in the SB were shared, which we lost to the team we tied with so in my mind we were second. I think its reasonable that after 13 years we would have won one outright.

The factors that also compound the situation is Stock is 0-7 in the last 4 years against Vandy and WKU. And lastly, we have had a once in a generation QB who is now a SR and we have been 7-6, 8-5, 7-6, 2-2. Yes, he was hurt the last two years but at some point when your window of opportunity is open you have to bust through. For us, its so important to win early to build our base and what's happened is we lose early and catch up in the easy part of our CUSA schedule - when no one is interested and the temps are cold. We are the kings on November.

One thing that is a disadvantage for us is the competition for the entertainment dollar...its hard for you all to understand the mind share, money that both the Titans and the Preds consume in the area. While there is growth in the area, its people moving in from all over the USA, they are not MT fans. Both of these happened about the time we moved to FBS...in 1999 we thought we would be expanding our stadium, now are are tarping the end zone.

Like I said in another post, Stock is a good man. But to go where we'd like to go we need to win little more and earlier in the seasons against our rivals, I don't think after 13 years he is going to take it to another level.

Even in your frustration with your coach...right now you are 3-1 with a big game at your house. If you win, you have to be happy with how the year is going. If you don't win, you can still run the table and win the conference....trust me we will drop a game or two. Your young QB will only get better.

Hope is a great game on Friday night!

 

[pdbailey]

That's my beef. Signing these coaches to these long term contracts which puts the university in a bad financial position.

Absurd

Please note that Holliday is no better than middle of the pack in CUSA in terms of salary, and the assistant coach budget isn't any better. Hell, he might even be in the lower half of the conference now.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

Good question on our expectations...there are only two coaches in all of FBS who have been coaching for 13 years that don't have a conference championship...Stock and the Northwestern coach.

Yes, and like Stock', Fitz has done a good job with what he has to work with. He is dwarfed by bigger/better programs in his own division, so not winning a conference championship (or even playing for one) is not a knock on him. Facing superior programs in his own division, he routinely gets his teams to a bowl. Likewise, Stock' faces bigger/better programs with far more advantages in his division, yet he consistently has placed 2nd or 3rd every single year and gets his team bowl eligible.

The factors that also compound the situation is Stock is 0-7 in the last 4 years against Vandy and WKU.

You're joking, right? What delusions of grandeur do you have of MTSU football? They are an average C-USA program in terms of what they offer a coach to succeed. Marshall, FAU, North Texas, Southern Miss, and UTSA all have easier paths to winning than MTSU. Yet you expect MTSU to beat an SEC team?

And lastly, we have had a once in a generation QB who is now a SR and we have been 7-6, 8-5, 7-6, 2-2. Yes, he was hurt the last two years but at some point when your window of opportunity is open you have to bust through

Wait: you're admitting that you have been playing with a backup QB yet are mad that you're only winning 7 and 8 games a season with a backup? You realize that there are usually only 1 or 2 C-USA teams that win more than 8 games in a season, right? Those teams last year were North Texas and FAU. Take Mason Fine away from North Texas. Do you think they would have still had 9 wins last year? Hell, without Mason, they may not have been bowl eligible last year. Do you think WKU would have won nearly as many games without Mike White?

Step away from the keyboard and think what you're saying. You are saying that a mid-level C-USA program is disappointing because they are only winning 7 and 8 games a year with their backup QB. Christ.

For us, its so important to win early to build our base and what's happened is we lose early and catch up in the easy part of our CUSA schedule - when no one is interested and the temps are cold. We are the kings on November.
!

This just keeps getting better. I hope you are not representative of your entire fan base. Now, winning isn't enough. You must win early in the season. Further, you must win when it is warm outside.

You win at the end when you have the easy portion of the C-USA schedule? What the fvck? The conference schedules easy games for MTSU each year at the end of each season?

To summarize, winning 7-8 games with a backup QB isn't enough. Backup QBs should be able to lead mid-level C-USA teams to 9-11 wins per year, right? But winning 9-10 games isn't enough if you lose two games before November, because you must win early in the year and not just when it is cold out.

One thing that is a disadvantage for us is the competition for the entertainment dollar...its hard for you all to understand the mind share, money that both the Titans and the Preds consume in the area. While there is growth in the area, its people moving in from all over the USA, they are not MT fans.

I'm the one who argued that point in this thread. Banker claimed that Huntington had more competition for the casual fan than MTSU because his housing development had many neighbors with flags from other schools in it and because Ohio University is "exactly" 90 minutes away. When I alerted him that an NFL team, and SEC team, and another Conference USA team were less than half of that distance away from MTSU, he claimed that WVU, Virginia Tech, Kentucky, etc. were also close. Then, when I showed him how many FBS and NFL teams were within that same distance to Murfreesboro, he dropped the argument.

..in 1999 we thought we would be expanding our stadium, now are are tarping the end zone.
!

In 1999, you guys were an independent and went 3-9, yet you expected to be selling out your stadium so much in the near future that you'd need expansion? So your fan base has been delusional for nearly 20 years?

Like I said in another post, Stock is a good man. But to go where we'd like to go we need to win little more and earlier in the seasons against our rivals, I don't think after 13 years he is going to take it to another level.

His winning exceeds what your school provides to him. Here is an idea- you want him to win at the highest level in the conference? Then, give him the support needed to win at the highest level in the conference.

Give him an indoor like one of the top programs in the conference (Marshall) has and like another top program (North Texas) just broke ground on within the last few weeks. Give him a much better stadium like the top three programs right now have (North Texas, FAU, Marshall). Give him a much better locker room and player lounge like almost every team in the conference has. Give him $100,000-$200,000 more per year to match the assistant salary pool of top C-USA programs (North Texas, FAU, Marshall). Give him an increase in attendance of 6000/game to match Marshall. Allow him to take a bunch of non-qualifiers.

As I said, of all the coaches in the conference who didn't arrive last year, he has the best conference record. The guy is winning at a rate higher than what he had to work with (things out of his hands) at MTSU.

Please note that Holliday is no better than middle of the pack in CUSA in terms of salary, and the assistant coach budget isn't any better. Hell, he might even be in the lower half of the conference now.

Last year's numbers had Marshall 4th out of 14 schools in assistant salary pool. In comparing head coaches success, looking at their salaries has no relevance. They don't work more or less depending on what their salary is. Having a higher salary to pay a head coach lands better coaches, just like having a bigger assistant salary pools gives you the opportunity to get better assistants. But in comparing coaches who are already at each school, it is irrelevant to discuss their salaries as we are looking at which head coach does a better job with what they have to work with.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

YAGS haiku:
So full of garbage
he is indomitable
Really no one cares

5 syllables
7 syllables
5 syllables

Gee....did I spell that correctly?
Go HERD !!!

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

YAGS haiku:
So full of garbage
he is indomitable
Really no one cares

5 syllables
7 syllables
5 syllables

Gee....did I spell that correctly?
Go HERD !!!

You try so hard to be witty and the result is always sh!tty.

 

[i am herdman]

Kids most often sign because of the coach. With that in mind the coach needs to be able to tell the kid he will be there for him his entire career. Of course we know things happen to cause the coach to leave but it is a selling tool for sure

Maybe so, but the exposure that it puts the school in financially is absurd.

Bad business practice. A school like Marshall is 2 to 3 million dollars on the hook to a football coach. Handing out those contract extensions like candy is crazy and uncalled for.

 

[i am herdman]

Please note that Holliday is no better than middle of the pack in CUSA in terms of salary, and the assistant coach budget isn't any better. Hell, he might even be in the lower half of the conference now.

If we gave him a million more would it matter?

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

If we gave him a million more would it matter?

That was my point in my explanation to him. In comparing the results between two head coaches, looking at their salaries is irrelevant. Giving one more or less money won't impact their results. Now, giving one hundreds of thousands more for an assistant pool could impact their results.

In saying that, Marshall's assistant salary pool last year was 4th out of 14 teams in the conference.

 

[Bankerreturns]

That was my point in my explanation to him. In comparing the results between two head coaches, looking at their salaries is irrelevant. Giving one more or less money won't impact their results. Now, giving one hundreds of thousands more for an assistant pool could impact their results.

In saying that, Marshall's assistant salary pool last year was 4th out of 14 teams in the conference.

Is it still? He was paying up for Legg and Heater, don't know what he's paying the new OC and DC.

Oh, and I didn't drop the argument on competition for fans, it's just pointless to argue with you. So I express my opinion and move on. You could be proven 100% incorrect on a topic, with a poll of posters on this site voting against your opinion 1,000 to zero, and you would still claim victory by just continuing to repeat your incorrect point until the other person gets tired and quits.

Every Saturday hundreds of cars, holding thousands of people, hit I-64, US 23 and U.S. 35 headed to Lexington, Morgantown, Columbus, Blacksburg and even Athens. Even though Marshall is in a metro area with 300,000 they have almost no market share in Kentucky and none in Ohio west of Cheasapeake, east of Crown City, or more than 10 miles north of the river. Also, Putnam County is much more WVU than Marshall. So when you look at true market you have 100,000 to 125,000 people to draw from. Getting 25,000 from that size pool is pretty outstanding.

Other points:

Marshall undergrad enrollment 9,500
Middle undergrad enrollment 19,500

Huntington population 47,000
Murfreesboro population 131,000

Huntington MSA 300,000
Nashville MSA 2,000,000

So, if you want to argue competition for fans, you would have to be able to justify that Middle has over 567% more competition to be correct based on MSA size. If you just want to look at the student body and home town Marshall has a base of 56,500 to draw from, Middle has 150,500 to draw from. So tell me how direct competition in Murfreesboro is almost 200% higher for Saturday entertainment dollars.

Only so many people can attend a Titans or Predators game and only so many people can attend a Vandy game. So for a sports fan wanting to attend football game, Middle has a huge pool of potential attendees and can offer a low cost option.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

Your argument lacks substantial logic in numerous areas.

Anyone will agree that major metro areas simply do not do well in college football attendance. That's because most of them 1) have NFL teams which fans align with far more than colleges they didn't attend 2) major areas have far more entertainment options than a college football game 3) major cities have more than one D1 college to support athletically.

Look at teams with an NFL team and check out the college attendance: Rutgers, SMU, FIU/Miami (the last two years they have bounced back some), Northwestern, San Diego State (previously), San Jose State/Cal, USF, Buffalo, Boston College, Cincinnati, Charlotte, Rice/Houston, MTSU, Maryland, Tulane, Pitt. Many of those schools have huge enrollments and a huge population base, but they all struggle for attendance. The one similarity? They all have an NFL team(s) near.

Look at the top 20 attendance leaders from last year. The only one with an NFL team is USC, and that NFL team lost a lot of fans (to USC's happiness) when the league left the city without a team for many years.

As I have already shown, MTSU has far more competition in terms of NFL and D1 teams within the same proximity than Huntington does. The enrollment is something I already conceded a couple of times. But arguing that there is a bigger population base simply doesn't help your argument when you consider how many other entertainment options (including football and other athletics) the greater Nashville area has compared to the greater Huntington area.

Everyone debating this has ignored this simple question: putting bias aside, if sole goal consisted of winning football games, would you rather coach at Marshall or MTSU. Everyone know they would choose Marshall because it has more advantages that gives a coach a better opportunity to win than MTSU does.

 

[Blueraider_Mike]

YAGS

You make some good points...but, its your opinion, there are things about our program that are not obvious. And I wasn't clear on a view points. Here are some more of my random thoughts.

The expansion idea from when we started was we thought 20 years down the road we might be expanding, just to clarify. We never expected to have sold our crowds in the early days but there are significant events, I will share one. In 2002, after an 8-3 campaign and a lot of players back from the 2001 team we opened the season with 3 SEC road games; Bama, UT and UK. All the games were good performances (had Bama beat) and we were 0-3, our 4th game was at home against SEMO and a big crowd showed up (25-26K) - we lost. It killed momentum....this has happened multiple times. Another was 2010 and 2011; we were 10-3 with a lot coming back and went 6-6 and 2-10. Not going to get into the details but there were important events when a "win" mattered and we didn't get it.

Rivalries - We beat Vanderbilt 3 times in a row in 2000, 2003, 2004. When we signed up the latest series, I don't think we expected to win all four but we did expect to win some and have the games competitive, we were blown out the last 3 times we've played them. The most embarrassing was the first game in 2017, it was a sold out Floyd stadium and we laid another dud. You combine this with the WKU losses - this is a huge rivalry for us. So its not just the losses, its the way we lose.

In light of our market, in light of the fact that UT hasn't been that good over the last decade; we feel like MT missed out on a huge window to grow the program. We didn't have the fan base that you have...we needed to grow ours. We didn't. Some of these factors were things know of us could have seen, such as the TV exposure and how that may be impacting butts in the seats. Other things are more local - Stock, while a good leader of the team is not visible in the Murfreesboro community. He is not a sales man for the program; we need one, now more than ever.

I know you wouldn't agree, but we don't view ourselves as an average CUSA team. As you have described, both our SB and CUSA winning % is above average. We desperately need to take the next step, from a facilities perspective we have a plan but simply don't have the money yet. I think the fan base believes that both our AD and our head FB coach can't get us there.

Lastly another point, we have a good budget for CUSA, we use it across the board, MT is good in multiple sports and has been over the 20 years we have been in FBS. Maybe we should do what other CUSA teams do and focus on FB, we are spreading our resources over multiple programs.

 

[Herdmeister]

YAGS

You make some good points...but, its your opinion, there are things about our program that are not obvious. And I wasn't clear on a view points. Here are some more of my random thoughts.

The expansion idea from when we started was we thought 20 years down the road we might be expanding, just to clarify. We never expected to have sold our crowds in the early days but there are significant events, I will share one. In 2002, after an 8-3 campaign and a lot of players back from the 2001 team we opened the season with 3 SEC road games; Bama, UT and UK. All the games were good performances (had Bama beat) and we were 0-3, our 4th game was at home against SEMO and a big crowd showed up (25-26K) - we lost. It killed momentum....this has happened multiple times. Another was 2010 and 2011; we were 10-3 with a lot coming back and went 6-6 and 2-10. Not going to get into the details but there were important events when a "win" mattered and we didn't get it.

Rivalries - We beat Vanderbilt 3 times in a row in 2000, 2003, 2004. When we signed up the latest series, I don't think we expected to win all four but we did expect to win some and have the games competitive, we were blown out the last 3 times we've played them. The most embarrassing was the first game in 2017, it was a sold out Floyd stadium and we laid another dud. You combine this with the WKU losses - this is a huge rivalry for us. So its not just the losses, its the way we lose.

In light of our market, in light of the fact that UT hasn't been that good over the last decade; we feel like MT missed out on a huge window to grow the program. We didn't have the fan base that you have...we needed to grow ours. We didn't. Some of these factors were things know of us could have seen, such as the TV exposure and how that may be impacting butts in the seats. Other things are more local - Stock, while a good leader of the team is not visible in the Murfreesboro community. He is not a sales man for the program; we need one, now more than ever.

I know you wouldn't agree, but we don't view ourselves as an average CUSA team. As you have described, both our SB and CUSA winning % is above average. We desperately need to take the next step, from a facilities perspective we have a plan but simply don't have the money yet. I think the fan base believes that both our AD and our head FB coach can't get us there.

Lastly another point, we have a good budget for CUSA, we use it across the board, MT is good in multiple sports and has been over the 20 years we have been in FBS. Maybe we should do what other CUSA teams do and focus on FB, we are spreading our resources over multiple programs.

Very informative. Thank you for sharing. It's always great having a sensible contributor to our board. After tonight, I wish you well. lol

 

[i am herdman]

Your argument lacks substantial logic in numerous areas.

Anyone will agree that major metro areas simply do not do well in college football attendance. That's because most of them 1) have NFL teams which fans align with far more than colleges they didn't attend 2) major areas have far more entertainment options than a college football game 3) major cities have more than one D1 college to support athletically.

Look at teams with an NFL team and check out the college attendance: Rutgers, SMU, FIU/Miami (the last two years they have bounced back some), Northwestern, San Diego State (previously), San Jose State/Cal, USF, Buffalo, Boston College, Cincinnati, Charlotte, Rice/Houston, MTSU, Maryland, Tulane, Pitt. Many of those schools have huge enrollments and a huge population base, but they all struggle for attendance. The one similarity? They all have an NFL team(s) near.

Look at the top 20 attendance leaders from last year. The only one with an NFL team is USC, and that NFL team lost a lot of fans (to USC's happiness) when the league left the city without a team for many years.

As I have already shown, MTSU has far more competition in terms of NFL and D1 teams within the same proximity than Huntington does. The enrollment is something I already conceded a couple of times. But arguing that there is a bigger population base simply doesn't help your argument when you consider how many other entertainment options (including football and other athletics) the greater Nashville area has compared to the greater Huntington area.

Everyone debating this has ignored this simple question: putting bias aside, if sole goal consisted of winning football games, would you rather coach at Marshall or MTSU. Everyone know they would choose Marshall because it has more advantages that gives a coach a better opportunity to win than MTSU does.

Marshall, no brainer. The tradition and support is there.

Find the right guy and we can be a winner, big time. It has been done before. but, right now there is not standard, goals, or accountability.

With the right guy Marshall is a diamond in the rough ready to explode but you have to want to win. Not set up a retirement job for the AD and football coach. Not accept 8-4 and a second or third place finish in the division. Not accept backing out of playing a bigger name opponent in a bowl game because you want to go to Florida.

The program is stagnant.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

YAGS


I know you wouldn't agree, but we don't view ourselves as an average CUSA team. As you have described, both our SB and CUSA winning % is above average. We desperately need to take the next step, from a facilities perspective we have a plan but simply don't have the money yet. I think the fan base believes that both our AD and our head FB coach can't get us there.
.

I agree. You are NOT an average C-USA team. You have had an above average C-USA team even though your football PROGRAM is average in everything other than on-field results. In other words, Stockstill is taking something that should perform at an average level and getting above average results. And this is a guy some of you are arguing should be fired?

YAGS
Lastly another point, we have a good budget for CUSA, we use it across the board, MT is good in multiple sports and has been over the 20 years we have been in FBS. Maybe we should do what other CUSA teams do and focus on FB, we are spreading our resources over multiple programs.

\

Again, you're proving my point. You want Stockstill to perform as one of the few top teams in C-USA, yet you admit that you guys don't fund your football program as well as those top teams do. Once again, you are admitting that Stockstill faces an uphill battle in comparison to the UNTs, FAUs, Marshalls of the conference. So if the administration/fans don't step up and give MTSU the resources that those other schools give their coaches, why should a guy who is out performing what he is given to work with be fired?

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

 

[i am herdman]

We were so out coached it was pathetic.

I hope Yags piles on you all

Yags, the floor is now yours!

 

[Marine03]

This thread ended with entirely too many arguments left on the table, please carry on. For the record Stockstill has as many CUSA Titles as Doc.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

This thread ended with entirely too many arguments left on the table, please carry on. For the record Stockstill has as many CUSA Titles as Doc.

Marine: Doc has one CUSA title (2014)
Tell me what year Stockstill won his CUSA title?

.......seems ole Rick kaint kount 2 lebon.......

 

[Marine03]

Marine: Doc has one CUSA title (2014)
Tell me what year Stockstill won his CUSA title?

.......seems ole Rick kaint kount 2 lebon.......

Oh yeah, I forgot he blew it with a 12 man on the field call

 

[i am herdman]

Marshall should be out performing MTSU.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

Let’s enter the last self-inflicted penalty of the CUSA champ game as exhibit #1 against Stock being any better than Doc.....
MTSU w/o Brent S. will not be nearly as efficient on offense next season ......

 

[i am herdman]

Let’s enter the last self-inflicted penalty of the CUSA champ game as exhibit #1 against Stock being any better than Doc.....
MTSU w/o Brent S. will not be nearly as efficient on offense next season ......

at least he was in the championship game.

 

[Marine03]

Let’s enter the last self-inflicted penalty of the CUSA champ game as exhibit #1 against Stock being any better than Doc.....
MTSU w/o Brent S. will not be nearly as efficient on offense next season ......

But... he has won a share of the Subelt title so it evens out.

 

[oldeherd]

Marine: Doc has one CUSA title (2014)
Tell me what year Stockstill won his CUSA title?

.......seems ole Rick kaint kount 2 lebon.......

W-S HerdFan, maybe the pressure got to ole Rick. Possibly too worried about how all those NFL teams, Titans, Falcons, Panthers, etc., were severely detracting from his team's success and severely depressing the MTSU's home attendance, especially that in the CUSA championship game. Just when Stockstill had finally gotten the Blue Raiders into the FBS "spotlight", a.k.a., the CUSA championship game!!

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

FWIW, I go to Nashville quite a bit, and I have never met a MTSU fan.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

Let’s enter the last self-inflicted penalty of the CUSA champ game as exhibit #1 against Stock being any better than Doc.....
MTSU w/o Brent S. will not be nearly as efficient on offense next season ......

Sorta like our O has been without Cato. Sucks!