Way too much to post your quote but I wii respond. What do I want? I want our proud football program back and I want those that think small about it and those that accept the crap we are seeing to be gone.
The beginning of the downward spiral of Marshall Football was...
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Three wins, seven wins, plunging season ticket sales, one of the worst offensive teams in the country, plunging Big Green support......and that is just the beginning.
And concerning Hamrick's bold leadership coming into this season I'm glad he set such high goals. Give me a break. Set a goal to be mediocre then celebrate reaching it. Oh how far we have fallen. The more I think about it the more pissed I get at these guys being allowed to ruin our program. Believe me that if I were setting the expectations we wouldn't have such low standards for performance.
What I want is pretty easy, I want to enjoy football Saturdays at Marshall based on what I see on the field and the excitement I feel in the crowd.
The way we play on offense and the lack of risk taking by the head coach makes us a very boring team to watch, except when we are on defense or receiving a kick off. Unfortunately for our staff, I have a pretty good memory. Doc was pretty explicit when he came here that he knew what Marshall was about and that we were going to be exciting to watch. Billy Legg was going to run a "wide open spread offense". I remember the running joke on here 8 years ago was whether we were going to call it the "The Legg's Spread Wide Open Offense".
Out of the 8 years they have been here we have gotten that for 3 years. I could understand that converting from Snyder ball, with Snyder recruits, took time, but I thought what we started seeing in 2011 and then through 2014 was going to be what we were going to be. However, the quick tempo, varying speeds, attacking style turned off like a light switch and has gotten progressively slower. We are now back to running the same number of plays per game as Snyder did.
We will not be successful at our level, with our recruits, playing boring, ball-control offense. If you don't remember, that's what Snyder tried for 5 years. In Doc's only successful seasons it was not what we did. in 2014 we were high powered on offense, in 2015 and 2016 WKU was high powered on offense, and in 2017 FAU was high powered on offense. That's what wins CUSA.
Then take in Doc's never take a chance mentality, which surpasses risk adverse and enters into the realm of stupidity. There is absolutely no tactical advantage to ever punt from your opponents 36 yard line when you are losing a football game. There is no tactical advantage to punt from your opponents 41 yard line on 4th and 3 with 20 seconds to go in the half and two timeouts on the board. Possession of the ball in plus territory is far more valuable than the 20 yards of field position. Doc simply either doesn't understand concepts of football or he is a cowardly leader. When you make those types of decisions you undermine the confidence of your players, the faith of the fans, and the trust of your assistant coaches.
So what do I want? I want a coach with nads that believes in playing the type of offense necessary to win championships in our conference.
The way we play on offense and the lack of risk taking by the head coach makes us a very boring team to watch, except when we are on defense or receiving a kick off. Unfortunately for our staff, I have a pretty good memory. Doc was pretty explicit when he came here that he knew what Marshall was about and that we were going to be exciting to watch. Billy Legg was going to run a "wide open spread offense". I remember the running joke on here 8 years ago was whether we were going to call it the "The Legg's Spread Wide Open Offense".
Out of the 8 years they have been here we have gotten that for 3 years. I could understand that converting from Snyder ball, with Snyder recruits, took time, but I thought what we started seeing in 2011 and then through 2014 was going to be what we were going to be. However, the quick tempo, varying speeds, attacking style turned off like a light switch and has gotten progressively slower. We are now back to running the same number of plays per game as Snyder did.
We will not be successful at our level, with our recruits, playing boring, ball-control offense. If you don't remember, that's what Snyder tried for 5 years. In Doc's only successful seasons it was not what we did. in 2014 we were high powered on offense, in 2015 and 2016 WKU was high powered on offense, and in 2017 FAU was high powered on offense. That's what wins CUSA.
Then take in Doc's never take a chance mentality, which surpasses risk adverse and enters into the realm of stupidity. There is absolutely no tactical advantage to ever punt from your opponents 36 yard line when you are losing a football game. There is no tactical advantage to punt from your opponents 41 yard line on 4th and 3 with 20 seconds to go in the half and two timeouts on the board. Possession of the ball in plus territory is far more valuable than the 20 yards of field position. Doc simply either doesn't understand concepts of football or he is a cowardly leader. When you make those types of decisions you undermine the confidence of your players, the faith of the fans, and the trust of your assistant coaches.
So what do I want? I want a coach with nads that believes in playing the type of offense necessary to win championships in our conference.
I'll add to that the constant shutting down of the offense ANYTIME we get a lead in the second half. My main issue with that isn't even the effect on that particular game. However boring, Doc rarely blows a second half lead.
My issue is more big picture. How can a team develop a rhythm, an identity, a killer finishing mentality when any time you DO put together a nice half offensively (ala first half Cincy) the coaches just shut the team down and ask the players in essence to play two different games? The end result is an inconsistent team that I don't think has put 4 good quarters together all year.
So yeah, you get onto the bus with a win, and have basically nothing from a long term performance standpoint to show for it.
So from 3 to 7 is not improvement? You know, he could just not tell Doc anything and they could have no motivation to improve since putting someone's job on the line isn't motivation.
Worst offensive teams in the country? That's a bit of a stretch, even for drama queens like yourself. Doc could also not have won 7 games as well.
7 games after winning 3 is not mediocre. In fact, you'd probably be laughed out of a room by any sane person with such a statement. Do you know how many programs are NOT with 7 wins? Do you know how many are still not bowl eligible and have not been in a long time?
It seems more that you don't like the people over what they are doing, thus, you are going to make it damn near impossible to get a positive result from them. That's fine, you can personally dislike someone but to rule out what they are doing because you don't like them and if you dismiss their body of work using irrational methods because you personally don't like them would be a disaster.
Taking risks? When Doc took risks everyone got so pissy about it. Doc took risks this season several times and most of them paid off. So I don't know what else you want him to do. The guy isn't going to put a WR atop the shoulders of a TE and score a touchdown.
Hell, he took a risk in the first game, if I am mistaken, the first drive?!
You talk about Doc punting on times when you felt he shouldn't have. Some of them would probably have been good to do, but if he fails, people like you take your phones out and begin to complain.
Ball control was what won us against Cincy. It was a brilliant strategy that worked. I don't see any objection to being oriented in doing that every game. Of course, teams are different, but you want control.
Also, we have had some very good special teams, in fact, I dare say it won us the Maryland game.
Running a play on a 4th and 3 on the opponent 41 will give them, possibly, the ball with 20 seconds and probably a timeout or two. You then have to hope the defense keeps them there, because 2 10 yard plays will put them in a good position to score.
While people like yourself complain and say "Why didn't he punt it? Make them run out the clock trying to score on a long field? We have a good punter!?"
You speak emotions of people you don't know, players, coaches, etc., you speak for yourself as if it were everyone else.
What you and the few like you want, is Doc gone. He could win 10 games and you'd find ways to complain. It's pretty sad actually.
You have no idea what you are talking about. I actually personally like Doc and Legg is probably a good guy as well. My personal feelings toward them has nothing to do with my view of the current state of our program.
Let's look at body of work. We have significantly underperformed the last two seasons. If you don't understand the word then get a dictionary. Doc doesn't get a pass on last year and no seven wins doesn't impress me with our schedule and the roster we have. In his eight years he has winning seasons just half the time. We have one conf championship during his entire tenure. Yes I think being ranked 94th out of 120 or so is among the worst offenses in the country. To suggest otherwise is the stretch. If these results are ok with you then so be it. That is your opinion and I accept that. They are not acceptable to me nor do I think they should be acceptable for our program.
And to be clear, my comments do not express my views of our players. I think we've got a talented team with some hard workers. I'm proud of their effort.
My guess is, you have 2 ways to go.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. So we don't need to change the gameplan.
Or
We change it based on what we think the adjustments Cincy will do.
Also, by the end of the 3rd, MU's defense was in its 3rd string. The offense didn't have to score because we could have at will.
I get what you're saying about the killer mentality for the players, in that game however, they already had killed Cincy and there wasn't a need to keep killing something already dead.
Winning 10 games in two years, after winning 10 games in your rebuilding year is beyond mediocre in this m. Mconference.
Why Should Doc get credit for getting us MAYBE halfway out of the biggest hole Marshall football was in in the last 30 years? When he himself is the one who put us there? And with the talent and expectations last years team had.....
The way you throw out the team this season is pretty contrast to what you claim to be saying here.
I doubt you actually like Doc or Legg for that matter. You weigh everything they do on unrealistic expectations given what had happened the year previously.
3-9 was an utter disaster and nobody's gonna argue that. However, given its effect moving forward, nobody, even you for sure, thought Marshall would even be somewhat better from that. Obviously they did changes or else, even teams with losing records would've kept beating Marshall this year.
Does this mean the status quo cannot be improved and the bar raised? Of course. But you can't expect to undo everything that happened in 1 season. It's rare to have happen.
UCF even needed a season to get themselves better after not even winning a game 2 years ago or whatever.
But according to you, that's unacceptable.
If you tear something or get an injury, do you really expect to be able to run a marathon and finish 1st during the recovery period? No. You should be shot if you believe that.
But through the steps needed to get back to where you once were, take time, and recovery can happen faster than expected, you'll be back to where you were before.
Frustrating? Of course, but I'm not gonna trash the coaches, team, and others because of it.
Sorry but, didn't this conference have more bowl eligible teams than there were slots available? So this year's been an improvement on all fronts.
Still a bad conference? Probably. But we'll see after bowl season.
Well, Doc should get some credit, for the very reason you said. If it's his fault for 2016, then it's his responsibility for 2017 and beyond. So far, much better than 2016. Do you want 2016 to happen again? Sorry you didn't get your wish this year pal.
It's not all on him, hell, Litton had to change his whole output as well, considering the inside elements of the team and how he was looked at by them. He went from being thrown through a table by one of his players, to high-fiving them and enjoying the season with them now?
How long you willing to wait on Holliday to make us an established contender ? Obviously 8 years, is it 9 years? 10 years, 15?
Kiffin did it in 1. Butch Davis would have too if it wasn't for Kiffin. Hell, Bill Clark at UAB was a FG away from winning the west and they didn't even PLAY football for 2 years.
So if it's so hard to make a crap team a contender in this conference, why are there three examples of someone doing it massively better just in this year alone?
Kiffin did it in 1. Butch Davis would have too if it wasn't for Kiffin. Hell, Bill Clark at UAB was a FG away from winning the west and they didn't even PLAY football for 2 years.
So if it's so hard to make a crap team a contender in this conference, why are there three examples of someone doing it massively better just in this year alone?
Well, considering NONE of them are "established" contenders, since FAU with a 10 win season has one of the winningest seasons in program history. Kiffin, Davis, and Clark...all had 1 good season. Marshall has at least enjoyed multiple winning seasons in the years Doc has been here. Hell, by year 3 we were contending. Even in 2015, it came down to the WKU game for us to win the East.
Thing is, all 3 of those guys will leave...Doc will stay...and those programs may never get back to the 1 single year they were good.
Of course, in 2020 their fans will talk about "how in 2017, we won CUSA with the best FAU team ever!!!"
In 2020, our fans will talk about "how in 2016, we went 3-9..."
Also, what exactly makes a downward spiral? Wouldn't we have to still be 3-9 or worse for it to constitute what a downward spiral is?
Look. You're obviously happy being a 2nd -4th place C-USA east team. That once a decade when the stars align may actually win the conference. That's all well and good I suppose, nobody is going to change your mind.
Just realize that to most people our place in the college football world isn't good enough.
Just realize that to most people our place in the college football world isn't good enough.
I said this exactly where? I've been the first to admit we can and need to do better. But unlike you, I'm not gonna be irrational in my expectations after a 3-9 year.
This thread is the beginning of the downward spiral.
It's not irrational when 25% of our conference met the kind of expectations most around here had for this season coming off of years similar to or worse than ours.
Sorry, all4theherd, but you are wearing coke bottle green glasses.
You were the type fan last year saying that 2016 was an abberation, a complete fluke. If that's the case then you certainly can't view 7 wins, none against winning teams, and an implosion down the stretch as a rebound. Why? Because you don't rebound from a fluke, you simply return to normal.
Second, we weren't competing for anything in Doc's third year, we went 5-7 in his third year.
Third, the conference did not get better this year. For starters, last year's champ, WKU, would have smoked FAU this year. Also, having a bunch of 6-6 and 7-5 teams doesn't make you better. A bunch of west teams got bowl eligible because UTEP and Rice went a combined 1-15 in conference with the only win being Rice over UTEP. That gave two wins to ever other west team because those two were horrible. Charlotte was likewise as pathetic in the east. Everybody else, except FAU, was mediocre, not good, and shared wins among themselves. When that happens you get a lot of bowl eligible teams. WKU, Middle, La Tech were all down this year. Look at our OOC performance by the conference - it was pathetic.
Fourth, I would never criticize a coach for taking a calculated risk. I will always criticize a coach for punting inside the opponents 40, especially when that coach is losing, even more when it's a game that doesn't in any way impact where you will finish in the conference standings, win or lose. It's just a complete lack of situational awareness on Doc's part as well as ignorance of statistics.
You were the type fan last year saying that 2016 was an abberation, a complete fluke. If that's the case then you certainly can't view 7 wins, none against winning teams, and an implosion down the stretch as a rebound. Why? Because you don't rebound from a fluke, you simply return to normal.
Second, we weren't competing for anything in Doc's third year, we went 5-7 in his third year.
Third, the conference did not get better this year. For starters, last year's champ, WKU, would have smoked FAU this year. Also, having a bunch of 6-6 and 7-5 teams doesn't make you better. A bunch of west teams got bowl eligible because UTEP and Rice went a combined 1-15 in conference with the only win being Rice over UTEP. That gave two wins to ever other west team because those two were horrible. Charlotte was likewise as pathetic in the east. Everybody else, except FAU, was mediocre, not good, and shared wins among themselves. When that happens you get a lot of bowl eligible teams. WKU, Middle, La Tech were all down this year. Look at our OOC performance by the conference - it was pathetic.
Fourth, I would never criticize a coach for taking a calculated risk. I will always criticize a coach for punting inside the opponents 40, especially when that coach is losing, even more when it's a game that doesn't in any way impact where you will finish in the conference standings, win or lose. It's just a complete lack of situational awareness on Doc's part as well as ignorance of statistics.
Well, in 2016 we were losing to teams we should have beaten. This year, we beat them. 7-5 is better than 3-9. Get over it.
Sorry. 4th year. We had made a bowl in year 2.
You're saying the 2 traditionally horrible teams in CUSA, Rice and UTEP should be blamed because they are being...Rice and UTEP and thats why the West is improved?!
Also you're upset that 2016 WKU didn't play 2017 FAU? What in the blue hell are you talking about? What does 2016 WKU have to do with 2017?! Who gives a rats ass about 2016 WKU vs 2017 FAU? Or who would win? The conference DID get better. The fact you're attempting time travel to make a point just destroys your own argument.
"Doc rarely blows a second half lead." You mean like in the last minute and a half of the UTSA game a couple weeks ago?
Socalherd......I took a look. EKU, Morehead State, Belmont, Tenn Tech, Tenn State, Jacksonville State, Austin Peay, UT--Martin, Murray State, Eastern Illinois, SIU-Edwardsville, S E Missouri State....ALL easy sites for Herd Fans to travel to.
Checking flights to Albuquerque is around $475-$560 ...lots of money for those that plan to fly to New Mexico for our Bowl game.
OVC is D-1 in basketball & baseball...FCS in football [formerly 1-AA].....Let's face it---- The HERD will NEVER win another national football championship in football playing in the FBS. NEVER. We can not play with the BIG BOY$, because of our football $$$$ budget and size.. Nor will our flagship school---WVU.
CUSA affords very few chances for HERD fans to travel & support Marshall sports. For that matter, I would wager more fans from the OVC would journey to Huntington to follow their schools...helping our bottom line of putting butts in the seats.
It was exciting to win two National Football Titles in football in the 1990's.....Playoff time was electric and we had a lot of home games because of our fans & facilities. It was good for the Huntington economy.
The HERD could [hopefully] still play "money games" (Power 5--- 2nd tier teams).... although usually on the road......Wake Forest, Duke, UNC, Cinny, Indiana, Purdue or even Pitt.
You may be on to something Socalherd....but I support the SUN BELT may be our best option without downgrading our football program....
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That is a rare event, statistically. During one of our games this year they showed that stat which was pretty surprising.
Don't get me wrong, I still think he employs the wrong strategy as you can see in the rest of my post.
That is the most sensible thing I've seen on here for a long time. I agree 100%.
Unfortunately, when the days you're talking about were here, there were very questionable ethical practices in place to accompany that situation.
Sadly, it's become the norm for college sports. It was the norm waaaay long ago, but now it's gotten so bad you have FBI being involved in some matters.
I thought if Marshall had won with Snyder, maybe 1 or 2 conference titles, Marshall would have had more room to really move around. Those that left had been regulars in the title game...ECU, UCF, Houston were the big ones.They also sorta called their own shots. Now, they kind of "run" the conference they are in and have major influence.
Marshall, I think, has that as well. While not as much since a few more conference titles would help, but enough to show them our true value.
Perhaps we could use this in a way to maneuver ourselves into better positions within the conference...primetime TV, not on the internet, better kickoff times, etc.
One thing I found interesting, was reading on another board, that CSU's poster had an insider in the bowl selection group.
UTSA was originally supposed to get the NM Bowl...but got turned down, despite being "promised 10,000 fans" because their offense was gawd awful, but because Marshall, in the eyes of ESPN, had more national allure and would bring better ratings.
If there is one thing Doc and MU did well this season, it was they really did shine when they were on ESPN.
You have a problem grasping concepts, so I'll slow it down.
You can call Rice and UTEP traditionally horrible (ignoring that Rice has as many CUSA championships as Marshall and that we are .500 against UTEP) and I won't argue, but they were even more horrible this year. Last year no CUSA team won less than 2 conference games, this year we had one team win zero and two teams only win one. That difference in 6 wins for the three worst teams last year and only two wins for the three worst teams this year means that there were 4 additional wins available for the mediocre teams. So that means that at least two teams that would have been 5-7 get to finish 6-6 because Rice, UTEP and Charlotte were really bad. If those three teams had all won 2 conference games each this year, we may have only had 6 or 7 bowl eligible teams.
The second point was that the best team this year was not as good as the best team last year. 2016 WKU was better than 2017 FAU. Additionally, the west champ, UNT, was no where near as good as La Tech was last year.
When you put those two things together - CUSA was weaker at the top and weaker at the bottom, it translates into the obvious, the conference was not better in 2017 then it was in 2016. If you don't believe me check the Sagarin ratings, the Massey Composite ratings, or any other source.
More bowl teams. You're missing the point. Stop living in 2016.
Also, stop trying to be rifle. Its failing miserably.
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If you think more bowl teams automatically means better conference you simply are incapable of thinking on any but the most basic level.
Which is better?
12-0
11-1
11-1
10-2
7-5
5-7
5-7
4-8
4-8
3-9
3-9
3-9
Or
10-2
7-5
7-5
7-5
6-6
6-6
6-6
3-9
3-9
3-9
1-11
0-12
Obviously you think the latter because more teams are bowl eligible. Again, last year every team in the conference won at least three games. This year we had an 0-12 and 2 1-11 teams. That means we had two less teams with losing records in the conference which is the direct reason we had two more bowl teams. It's really a simple concept, sorry you can't grasp it.
Which is better?
12-0
11-1
11-1
10-2
7-5
5-7
5-7
4-8
4-8
3-9
3-9
3-9
Or
10-2
7-5
7-5
7-5
6-6
6-6
6-6
3-9
3-9
3-9
1-11
0-12
Obviously you think the latter because more teams are bowl eligible. Again, last year every team in the conference won at least three games. This year we had an 0-12 and 2 1-11 teams. That means we had two less teams with losing records in the conference which is the direct reason we had two more bowl teams. It's really a simple concept, sorry you can't grasp it.
The idea that MU should join the one-bid basketball bottom of I-AA football OVC so 50 random super-fans can drive to some game in some random upper south jerk-water town is the stupidest thing I have heard in decades.
MU did all it could do in I-AA. We had accomplished all that could be accomplished (and were losing money at it, because there just is no money in I-AA) and we made the decision to become a mid-major TWENTY YEARS AGO, knowing that mid-majors do not win national championships. Lot of other of the big dogs in I-AA followed our lead, because there is just no money in I-AA and , blunt fact, nobody outside the fanbases of the schools cares.
MU did all it could do in I-AA. We had accomplished all that could be accomplished (and were losing money at it, because there just is no money in I-AA) and we made the decision to become a mid-major TWENTY YEARS AGO, knowing that mid-majors do not win national championships. Lot of other of the big dogs in I-AA followed our lead, because there is just no money in I-AA and , blunt fact, nobody outside the fanbases of the schools cares.
The beginning of the end happened when we turned down CUSA in 2000
BINGO...I was guessing the same thing. But, he [?] makes some sound remarks often...just my opinion!
Zilla22
Considering the buyout is the same $7M to leave CUSA for the Sun Belt (or the OVC or the Mountain East or whatever) as it would be for the supposed step up to THE AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!! we are not going anywhere. Until the next great realignment which will happen when the TV deals all expire next decade.
It is about 6 of one, half-dozen of another to me. Most people put the SBC at the bottom of the P5, but really it is no different. MU has a history with Appy State, and many of the same displaced WVians that can see us against UNCC can there as well, and, IMHO Appy has some shot at conending, while UNCC is kidding itself. Coastal Carolina is a plus, as WV has a big connection with Myrtle Beach. The rest are pretty interchangable. The travel footprint is smaller, losing the directional Floridas and UTEP (El Paso is in the Mountain timezone and closer to Los Angeles than to the Texas Louisiana state line).
Don't forget we had some great history with Georgia Southern too. The Sun Belt has two divisions.....and with The HERD's financial issues...travel would be less expensive than going to distant CUSA sites....I suppose?. My question is why did MTSU, FAU, LA Tech, FIU bolt from the Sun Belt to join CUSA?
Zilla22
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