Uncomfortable Post-Season Thoughts - Round 1

[herdalicious]

Between the direct impact of his carries and the adjustments they required in the passing defense, Brenden Knox was personally responsible for the vast majority of our offense in 2019.

In 2018, Brenden Knox was a (RS) FR playing special teams, looking up at Trey Rodriguez, Anthony Anderson and Tyler King, and never touching the ball. After the coaching staff took two weeks into the regular season before fully analyzing Trey Rodriguez' 1.6 yards per carry, he was benched (and subsequently transferred to Jupiter) and Tyler King was promoted to HB1.

In garbage time against FAU, with the opponent completely salted away and most of the home fans back at their tailgates, we gave Tyler King his 24th and final carry of the game and the season, losing him to injury (but maybe also discipline? Or was it just injury? Or discipline? WHO KNOWS). In that void, Knox stepped up and was immediately revealed to be the best offensive player on the team, and he has served that purpose ever since.

Had Trey Rodriguez not completely washed out, and had Tyler King managed to stay injury/drug-free, Brenden Knox would be the third option on an offense that only utilizes two backs at any given time.

Some names you won't recognize:
Knowledge McDaniel (Freshman)
Joseph Early (Junior)
Lawrence Papillion (RS Freshman)
Cedric Wilcox (Freshman)

Larry got 6 carries against VMI, and that was the last time a Herd running back not named Knox or Evans touched the ball. Against FIU, Brenden Knox had 33 carries.

 

[riflearm2]

Larry got 6 carries against VMI, and that was the last time a Herd running back not named Knox or Evans touched the ball.

Is that accurate? Marshall had only two running backs get at least one carry for the rest of the season (which spanned 11 games)?

That is unbelievably horrible coaching, severe shortsightedness by the staff (including the HC, OC, and RB), and something a real AD would discuss with an HC.

I don’t care if your offense is the run-n-shoot and if you have the top two RBs in the nation. Doing what Marshall did leaves your backs susceptible to injury and fatigue and severely hurts the ability to build experience and improve.

Damn, considering this is even with the new rule where you can play four games and still get a redshirt, it makes it even more dumbfounding.

 

[Aaron Perkins]

Tyler King had 15 carries
Gaines had 23
Willie has 7
And Green has over 100

Knox averaged 20 carries a game and Evans a little over 5. Not like we ran their legs off

 

[goherd44]

Is that accurate? Marshall had only two running backs get at least one carry for the rest of the season (which spanned 11 games)?

That is unbelievably horrible coaching, severe shortsightedness by the staff (including the HC, OC, and RB), and something a real AD would discuss with an HC.

I don’t care if your offense is the run-n-shoot and if you have the top two RBs in the nation. Doing what Marshall did leaves your backs susceptible to injury and fatigue and severely hurts the ability to build experience and improve.

Damn, considering this is even with the new rule where you can play four games and still get a redshirt, it makes it even more dumbfounding.

Sorry it took so long for Aaron to tell you that you're wrong. It's the holidays and they are short on mods and there are a lot of people posting things that are wrong. They will try to be quicker with telling everybody they are wrong in the future. I'm just glad Josh has Aaron now because before he was getting worn out keeping up with telling everybody they were wrong by himself.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

That is unbelievably horrible coaching, severe shortsightedness by the staff (including the HC, OC, and RB), and something a real AD would discuss with an HC.

So is burning McDaniel's RS just to run down and on kickoffs. Couldn't get him a few carries and we never had garbage time to get him in. Highly recruited RB that had big time offers we used to chase down kicks. It would be different if he made a difference. As bad as coverage has been could we not have just used some walk-on LB instead.

 

[banker6796]

I didn't realize, but the NCAA stat page does show McDaniel appearing in 5 games. What a waste.

 

[whf2]

Not saying he will, should, but he's got three more chances to red shirt. Did he get hurt?

 

[Aaron Perkins]

Knowledge had not been on a football field for live action since 2017. My guess is he needed to play football in any capacity.

 

[banker6796]

Knowledge had not been on a football field for live action since 2017. My guess is he needed to play football in any capacity.

So you're cool that we spent a year of eligibility, tuition, room, food, books, plus cost of attendance for one solo and one assisted tackle? That's about $30,000 per tackle. Lots of money for a broke program. Was it that important to play him in the fifth game where he didn't register any stats? Was that one extra game worth a year of eligibility? Just couldn't stop at 4?

My guess is they forgot he played in the Boise game and screwed up on the count.

 

[Aaron Perkins]

He played in seven games

 

[banker6796]

The NCAA participation page has him at 5.

 

[Aaron Perkins]

You are correct. I hadn’t noticed if he played this week, but he had been for so many straight. I missed that he didn’t play against Charlotte.

I’m going to do some digging on this.

 

[MARSHALL77]

Tyler King had 15 carries
Gaines had 23
Willie has 7
And Green has over 100

Knox averaged 20 carries a game and Evans a little over 5. Not like we ran their legs off

True - Green was too busy throwing incomplete passes in between a run or two so then we were punting. Not like Marshall had a prolific offense.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

I didn't realize, but the NCAA stat page does show McDaniel appearing in 5 games. What a waste.

Trying telling that kid to RS next season after this. He had an offer from Ohio State amongst others. They usually know a thing or two about RBs. Blows my mind. I bet we lost track of his action. No way that was done on purpose. How dumb would that be. They should have used him. As the season wore on I became less and less of a fan of Evans. McDaniel and Papillon should have gotten some carries. However par for the course we waste talent.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

I didn't realize, but the NCAA stat page does show McDaniel appearing in 5 games. What a waste.

Herdzone does as well. BSU, FAU, WKU, Rice and LaTech.

 

[RhinoD]

Knox is our offense... And has been most of the season.

Last week we were sitting through the slop in the second quarter at the Joan and MU inevitably ran it up the middle out of the shotgun on 3rd and 10 (we do that at least twice a game because throwing for first downs is for bitches like Ohio State and LSU)... And Knox got a few yards setting up a punt from our own 45 yard line, when he should have been stopped in the backfield.

My dad, who has played, coached and been around football for almost 50 years, looked over at me and said – "The amazing thing about that kid is, he does it almost all himself. Marshall has run the same two plays (left and right, for four variations) the entire game. FIU knows it's coming, the offensive line isn't getting much push, and Knox makes yards out of nothing."

 

[herdalicious]

1. Tyler King had 15 carries before he was booted from the program (see multiple references in OP)
   
2. Xavier Gaines is a tight end, and he had 17 more carries than any HB not named Knox or Evans
   
3. Willie Johnson is a wide receiver, and he had 1 more carry than any HB not named Knox or Evans
   
4. Isaiah Green is the quarterback
   
5. Brenden Knox finished 2019 with the 9th most rushing attempts from scrimmage in all of FBS.

Fixed!

And a funny thing about Willie Johnson: he had 7 rushes for 116 yards and 12 catches for 279 yards. Beyond the fact one of our top receiving threats had only five more catches than he had rushes on the year, a player who averaged 20.8 yards every time he touched the ball only touched the ball an average of 1.6 times per game.

In 2017, during Johnson's Sophomore season and Florida Man Chase Litton's last year at QB for Marshall, Johnson had 36 catches for 443 yards and 4 TDs. He would not reach those numbers in his last two seasons combined.

 

[herdalicious]

My dad, who has played, coached and been around football for almost 50 years, looked over at me and said – "The amazing thing about that kid is, he does it almost all himself. Marshall has run the same two plays (left and right, for four variations) the entire game. FIU knows it's coming, the offensive line isn't getting much push, and Knox makes yards out of nothing."

Your dad is so right. I told someone the other day that during the bowl game they should do a shot every time Brenden Knox hits a hole created by the offensive line. An airplane bottle will get them to 2020.

The play selection during the Charlotte and FIU games was very limited, and we did a lot of RPO handoffs on third and long because our QB can't throw a wet ball. We could have recruited someone who could, but Charlotte and FIU got to those kids first.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

I just hope we don't run Knox into the ground like we did Rockhead. He doesn't play as physical as Devon(he doesn't seek out contact), but he pretty much is our entire offense. I worry that teams will take the fight directly to Knox the way they did Devon in 2015 because our passing game is abysmal and isn't a threat to beat Oklahoma Panhandle State(yes this team exists).

92nd in Completion % (.573)
95th in Passing Offense (200.9 ypg)
88th in Passing Efficiency (128.19)

Isaiah Green ranks
89th in Completion % (.575)
82nd in Completions per Game (15.00)
80th in Passing Efficiency (127.30)
75th in Passing TDs (14)
67th in Passing Yards (2,265)
80th in Passing Yards per Game (188.80)
46th in Yards per Completion (12.58)
84th in Points Responsible For (110)
95th in Points Responsible per Game (9.2)
73rd in Yards per Attempt (7.24)

They don't track it, but I would be curious as to where he ranks in total passes attempted and passes attempted per game.

 

[banker6796]

He was 58th in attempts based on sorting the NCAA stat page.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

He was 58th in attempts based on sorting the NCAA stat page.

If you notice when you sort there would be attempts on the first page less than the second page as the pages are arranged by the chief stat for the category. I transferred all the team passing attempt numbers to a spreadsheet and then sorted them. We ranked 95th in passing attempts with 330 on the season.

That reveals several questions.
It shows you Doc's level of aggression.
Is that truly because Doc wants to play like this or is it because he doesn't believe that Green is capable of throwing the ball more than 27 times a game.

 

[banker6796]

As an individual though, he was 58th in pass attempts. You're looking at team stats, so a team that had QB1 throw 300 passes and QB2 throw 40 would be higher on your list, but I assume you are using individual stats for your other numbers.

 

[RhinoD]

Stop with your analytics and statistics... We coach/play from the gut around here!

You math nerds stay away from our old-school 1970's Big10 offense.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

As an individual though, he was 58th in pass attempts. You're looking at team stats, so a team that had QB1 throw 300 passes and QB2 throw 40 would be higher on your list, but I assume you are using individual stats for your other numbers.

The 330 was team passing. You are correct now that I look at strictly individual.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

Stop with your analytics and statistics... We coach/play from the gut around here!

You math nerds stay away from our old-school 1970's Big10 offense.

[Stands up and raises hand]

I'm BleedsGreen33 and I have a problem. I am addicted to spreadsheets. I can't stop manipulating stats.

[hangs head in shame....sits back down]

 

[trace_94]

Another fun fact: from WR’s only this season (not counting Gaines in that), our WR’s have produced a total of 87 catches. Think about how many times we’ve had one single WR get that many catches or more in a season. Green has been bad at times this season, but his lack of WR help isn’t making things any easier for him.

 

[TeamThompson88]

Well, WRs can’t throw the ball to themselves!
Their has been PLENTY of times that the WRs have been open and NOT gotten the ball #Facts!
Don’t just look at the amount of receptions, ask why weren’t there more target attempts...
Hell we have a TRUE FRESHMAN that only got targeted in 7of the 12 Game and yet he still lead the WRs in Catches and Yards ...
#Facts

 

[riflearm2]

Tyler King had 15 carries
Gaines had 23
Willie has 7
And Green has over 100

Knox averaged 20 carries a game and Evans a little over 5. Not like we ran their legs off

In other words, they did absolutely nothing to develop depth at running back, which is a huge issue. On top of that, knowing you can play kids up to four games and keep their redshirt, there is absolutely no justification for not getting an additional two other running backs prepared throughout the season to carry the ball 20 times each (two carries per game after King was lost). It's a great disservice to the program, not to mention, the fatigue/liability it puts on a back.

Look at the two most decorated running backs in the country coming into this season - guys with a ton of talent, experience, and heading to the NFL after the season that could justify a team not getting any other guys carries: Jonathan Taylor at Wisconsin and AJ Dillon at Boston College.

Taylor carried the ball a ton of times, but even with his ability and experience, BC was still able to have another running back carry it 75 times, another back carry it 35 times, three other backs carry it 10+ times each, and another back carry it 8 times. And they were smart about it by still preserving redshirts for some of those guys.

That's seven guys carrying it 8+ times during the season, getting game experience, preserving redshirts in the cases of some, and helping take some of the weight off of just one or two guys.

BC had AJ Dillon, justifiably, carry it a ton of times. But they also had another back carry it almost 150 times, two other backs (one a converted receiver) carry it 25 times each, another carry it 14 times, and two other backs get a few carries each.

Again, that is seven running backs getting multiple carries throughout the season to get game experience and develop depth. Of those seven, at least four carried it 20+ times.

That isn't including receivers who get rushes, as that isn't developing depth at the position.

On the other hand, Marshall had just four running backs get any carries the entire season, one of whom was gone after week two (meaning they should have had even more as a result) and another with just 6 carries. So from week three on, only two backs received a carry. That's atrocious on so many levels.

And that's not entirely on Doc. That is also on the RB coach for not recruiting and developing guys to be game ready. This is his fourth fvcking season coaching RBs at Marshall. After that long, the position and the recruits in it are his. He doesn't control his room (loses his starter due to dismissal) and then, throughout an entire season, can only get two guys ready to run the ball.

 

[trace_94]

Well, WRs can’t throw the ball to themselves!
Their has been PLENTY of times that the WRs have been open and NOT gotten the ball #Facts!
Don’t just look at the amount of receptions, ask why weren’t there more target attempts...
Hell we have a TRUE FRESHMAN that only got targeted in 7of the 12 Game and yet he still lead the WRs in Catches and Yards ...
#Facts

Of course, Green has missed his WR’s many times this year. But it’s not all on him, it goes both ways and IMO, if our WR’s weren’t so young and inexperienced as a whole, we wouldn’t have had to rely on the TE’s so much.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

In other words, they did absolutely nothing to develop depth at running back, which is a huge issue. On top of that, knowing you can play kids up to four games and keep their redshirt, there is absolutely no justification for not getting an additional two other running backs prepared throughout the season to carry the ball 20 times each (two carries per game after King was lost). It's a great disservice to the program, not to mention, the fatigue/liability it puts on a back.

Look at the two most decorated running backs in the country coming into this season - guys with a ton of talent, experience, and heading to the NFL after the season that could justify a team not getting any other guys carries: Jonathan Taylor at Wisconsin and AJ Dillon at Boston College.

Taylor carried the ball a ton of times, but even with his ability and experience, BC was still able to have another running back carry it 75 times, another back carry it 35 times, three other backs carry it 10+ times each, and another back carry it 8 times. And they were smart about it by still preserving redshirts for some of those guys.

That's seven guys carrying it 8+ times during the season, getting game experience, preserving redshirts in the cases of some, and helping take some of the weight off of just one or two guys.

BC had AJ Dillon, justifiably, carry it a ton of times. But they also had another back carry it almost 150 times, two other backs (one a converted receiver) carry it 25 times each, another carry it 14 times, and two other backs get a few carries each.

Again, that is seven running backs getting multiple carries throughout the season to get game experience and develop depth. Of those seven, at least four carried it 20+ times.

That isn't including receivers who get rushes, as that isn't developing depth at the position.

On the other hand, Marshall had just four running backs get any carries the entire season, one of whom was gone after week two (meaning they should have had even more as a result) and another with just 6 carries. So from week three on, only two backs received a carry. That's atrocious on so many levels.

And that's not entirely on Doc. That is also on the RB coach for not recruiting and developing guys to be game ready. This is his fourth fvcking season coaching RBs at Marshall. After that long, the position and the recruits in it are his. He doesn't control his room (loses his starter due to dismissal) and then, throughout an entire season, can only get two guys ready to run the ball.

All great points. There's also something else missing that Marshall hasn't had all season long. Well not since game 1. Garbage time. Because of Doc's genius philosophy of sitting on small leads and running clock we haven't had garbage time since VMI. There hasn't been that opportunity to get backups in the game either. Every decision that Doc has made this season has been severely short sighted. I mean his justification for running the offense like this is to protect the defense, yet because we milk to small leads instead of building on them the starters are out there late in the 4th fighting for their lives to either maintain a FG lead.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

Of course, Green has missed his WR’s many times this year. But it’s not all on him, it goes both ways and IMO, if our WR’s weren’t so young and inexperienced as a whole, we wouldn’t have had to rely on the TE’s so much.

How many drops have we seen from wide open WRs all year long. Like you said. There's reason the top 2 pass catchers on this team are TEs and midway through the year 1,2, and 4th on the receptions list were TEs. It speaks volumes when Obi has only played 3 games and has nearly become the top WR on the team. He only needs 6 catches and 134 yards.

Broc Thompson 19 catches for 334 yards and 0 TDs
Willie Johnson 12 catches for 279 yards and 3 TDs
Obi Obialo 14 catches for 199 yards and 0 TDs

 

[trace_94]

How many drops have we seen from wide open WRs all year long. Like you said. There's reason the top 2 pass catchers on this team are TEs and midway through the year 1,2, and 4th on the receptions list were TEs. It speaks volumes when Obi has only played 3 games and has nearly become the top WR on the team. He only needs 6 catches and 134 yards.

Broc Thompson 19 catches for 334 yards and 0 TDs
Willie Johnson 12 catches for 279 yards and 3 TDs
Obi Obialo 14 catches for 199 yards and 0 TDs

Yep definitely have seen drops this season. It’s pretty telling that Obi is the second leading WR and he’s only played in 3 games. Those guys are gonna have to grow up fast because it can’t just be Obi next season.

 

[riflearm2]

All great points. There's also something else missing that Marshall hasn't had all season long. Well not since game 1. Garbage time. Because of Doc's genius philosophy of sitting on small leads and running clock we haven't had garbage time since VMI. There hasn't been that opportunity to get backups in the game either. Every decision that Doc has made this season has been severely short sighted. I mean his justification for running the offense like this is to protect the defense, yet because we milk to small leads instead of building on them the starters are out there late in the 4th fighting for their lives to either maintain a FG lead.

I think getting your teeth kicked in by Cinci resulted in quite a bit of garbage time which would have allowed younger/less experienced guys to get reps.

Everything about it is just awful organizational coaching.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

Everything about it is just awful organizational coaching.

Kind of like sending your holder and punter out there wearing the same number. Not once, but twice in the same game.

 

[riflearm2]

Kind of like sending your holder and punter out there wearing the same number. Not once, but twice in the same game.

Mind-boggling. I try not to think about that, because I'll end up breaking my computer. The fact that nobody lost their job over that repeated issue is enough for John to lose his.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

Mind-boggling. I try not to think about that, because I'll end up breaking my computer. The fact that nobody lost their job over that repeated issue is enough for John to lose his.

It really does speak to the overall state of the program.

 

[mlblack16.]

I mean his justification for running the offense like this is to protect the defense, yet because we milk to small leads instead of building on them the starters are out there late in the 4th fighting for their lives to either maintain a FG lead.

There's no way he's seriously trying to do this. I think he came up with this excuse to convince others that his inability to manage a football program is actually just part of his genius.

I mean, the "loveable losers" (like you know who) will buy that nonsense, but not me.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

There's no way he's seriously trying to do this. I think he came up with this excuse to convince others that his inability to manage a football program is actually just part of his genius.

I mean, the "loveable losers" (like you know who) will buy that nonsense, but not me.

I 100% think this is how he wants to play. You can see how the plays trend during the game. Go watch Rice. We opened it up in the 1st quarter got a lead and then the calls got more conservative.

Go back and watch WKU. In particular watch the plays on the series leading up to Willie's big play at the end of the 2nd quarter then watch the set of plays immediately after on that series.

Numerous times since 2015 Doc has talked about his change in philosophy.

I mean it's either Doc or it's Green. Someone is deciding to all most of the plays behind and around the Los instead of pushing the ball down the field.

I am not a big fan of his, but go back and watch Clark's body language during games. When the conservative calls started to come in he'd get visibly upset.

I have heard first hand about the heated debates that Doc and Legg used to have during games because Doc wanted to slow the pace down. Cramsey said either prior to this season or last that their goal was to run something like 60 or 70 less a game. That's an odd goal don't you think?

 

[mlblack16.]

I 100% think this is how he wants to play. You can see how the plays trend during the game. Go watch Rice. We opened it up in the 1st quarter got a lead and then the calls got more conservative.

Go back and watch WKU. In particular watch the plays on the series leading up to Willie's big play at the end of the 2nd quarter then watch the set of plays immediately after on that series.

Numerous times since 2015 Doc has talked about his change in philosophy.

I mean it's either Doc or it's Green. Someone is deciding to all most of the plays behind and around the Los instead of pushing the ball down the field.

I am not a big fan of his, but go back and watch Clark's body language during games. When the conservative calls started to come in he'd get visibly upset.

I have heard first hand about the heated debates that Doc and Legg used to have during games because Doc wanted to slow the pace down. Cramsey said either prior to this season or last that their goal was to run something like 60 or 70 less a game. That's an odd goal don't you think?

I just chalked it up to halftime adjustments made by the other team and stay the course mentality by John.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

I just chalked it up to halftime adjustments made by the other team and stay the course mentality by John.

Oh those play a part. We never seem to veer away from the original game plan. You know how every team scripts their first series or two? Well most of our games look like we scripted the entire game and no matter what they do we don't veer or adapt. We just do what we were going to do even if it works or not. Go watch Boise. Knox owned the first quarter and a half then BSU adjusted. Did we do anything different to get Knox and King going again? Nope. We just called the same couple plays we always do.

Look at Charlotte and them running that same QB sneak over and over again and we never adjusted.

Ohio with the slant pass. They just did over and over again back.