Woke crap in medicine

[herdfan429]

@-CarlHungus-
What are your thoughts on wokeness in medicine.

What Happens When Doctors Can't Tell the Truth?

Whole areas of research are off-limits. Top physicians treat patients based on their race. An ideological 'purge' is underway in American medicine.

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[-CarlHungus-]

I’m not in academics (where it’s worse), but I do have good friends there. In private conversations, they say they’re scared to speak up on this stuff. For example, Ibram Kendi was an invited lecturer at a major cancer conference recently. I think many of his proposals are pretty radical - but do you think anyone in academia wants to say that out loud? No way.

It’s a problem.

I think Herzog/Weiss covered this well. What happened to the Pitt cardiology guy should have been a wake up.

The worst thing you can do to one another (or residents) is not be honest with them. If you’re scared that your honesty will cause you your job then you will preserve your job at all costs.

Stifling all dissent (anything you say that is heterodox is turned on you to make you seem racist or whatever charge can be thrown at you) has come to medicine, and I don’t like it.

 

[i am herdman]

This stuff is going to ruin everything. The medical field has no place for this crap. Look where it got is in regard to the Wuhan Flu. Don't upset the Chinese. bllablaalalalal

 

[raleighherdfan]

I’m not in academics (where it’s worse), but I do have good friends there. In private conversations, they say they’re scared to speak up on this stuff. For example, Ibram Kendi was an invited lecturer at a major cancer conference recently. I think many of his proposals are pretty radical - but do you think anyone in academia wants to say that out loud? No way.

It’s a problem.

I think Herzog/Weiss covered this well. What happened to the Pitt cardiology guy should have been a wake up.

The worst thing you can do to one another (or residents) is not be honest with them. If you’re scared that your honesty will cause you your job then you will preserve your job at all costs.

Stifling all dissent (anything you say that is heterodox is turned on you to make you seem racist or whatever charge can be thrown at you) has come to medicine, and I don’t like it.

My career experience supports this^^^. Stifling dissent is rampant in academia medical centers.

This supports my opinion/concern that the (more broadly used) "consensus in science" mantra is greatly flawed. Money (research grants/private investment capital) drives the (political) narratives and many outcomes across the research spectrum.

 

[MichiganHerd]

I’m not in academics (where it’s worse), but I do have good friends there. In private conversations, they say they’re scared to speak up on this stuff. For example, Ibram Kendi was an invited lecturer at a major cancer conference recently. I think many of his proposals are pretty radical - but do you think anyone in academia wants to say that out loud? No way.

It’s a problem.

I think Herzog/Weiss covered this well. What happened to the Pitt cardiology guy should have been a wake up.

The worst thing you can do to one another (or residents) is not be honest with them. If you’re scared that your honesty will cause you your job then you will preserve your job at all costs.

Stifling all dissent (anything you say that is heterodox is turned on you to make you seem racist or whatever charge can be thrown at you) has come to medicine, and I don’t like it.

All this stuff here is why I decided at age 19 to not be a brain surgeon. Saw all this coming, and decided to follow greed into the woodworking business. Doesn't pay well, but it's fun out there in the shed tinkering around with saws and beers.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

My career experience supports this^^^. Stifling dissent is rampant in academia medical centers.

This supports my opinion/concern that the (more broadly used) "consensus in science" mantra is greatly flawed. Money (research grants/private investment capital) drives the (political) narratives and many outcomes across the research spectrum.

Absolutely. Not sure I know a better solution but protection of the institution is often prioritized over pursuit of truth. This is not unique to medicine, though.

In the Vanity Fair piece (posted elsewhere) it talked about all the scientists that signed the Lancet article (basically saying, look, the "Science is settled, this wasn't a lab leak") declared no conflict of interest, yet six of them were heavily funded by the sidestep agency funneling US money into gain of function labs.

 

[herdfan429]

Absolutely. Not sure I know a better solution but protection of the institution is often prioritized over pursuit of truth. This is not unique to medicine, though.

In the Vanity Fair piece (posted elsewhere) it talked about all the scientists that signed the Lancet article (basically saying, look, the "Science is settled, this wasn't a lab leak") declared no conflict of interest, yet six of them were heavily funded by the sidestep agency funneling US money into gain of function labs.

The guy that wrote it I believe was in charge of the lab funneling money to Wuhans gain of function research.

 

[riflearm2]

This thread is great coming from the guys whose politicians force the Bible to be taught in science classes.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

There’s definitely religion taking over our schools, but it doesn’t have a creationist bent.

It does come with original sin though. It also prioritizes “lived experience “ over actual data though. Which is a nice way of saying that someone’s opinion can’t be questioned because they’re highest on the hierarchy of the aggrieved.

The most well known atheists out there (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins et al) are terrified of wokeism. This is not a fundamentalist deplorable thing.

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[herdfan429]

This thread is great coming from the guys whose politicians force the Bible to be taught in science classes.

The only time the Bible was brought up in any class I had in school was in English.

 

[Kate Branson]

What troubles me is reading that the opposition to this Wokeism is "scared, afraid, hopeless for the future, etc."

Because of this? Come on, if it's a bad idea and a token gesture to let somebody have their day you just still let them have it and go on. You don't take it serious and sure as hell don't let it ruin your outlook.

My outlook is shitty enough already. I'm not going to blame it on something as irrelevant as this though.

 

[riflearm2]

There’s definitely religion taking over our schools, but it doesn’t have a creationist bent.

What leads you to believe that? In the past decade, states such as Louisiana and Tennessee have passed legislation permitting creationism teaching. Many other states use tax payer money for child tax credits and other programs that have a strong creationism teaching aspect.

The only time the Bible was brought up in any class I had in school was in English.

Yeah, that's the point. When we were growing up, education focused on the truth: science. Now, over the past decade, there has been a strong (and somewhat successful) push to teach creationism alongside evolution.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

What leads me to believe it is massive growth in DEI programs, incorporating the 1619 project into curriculum, and Kendi type anti racism becoming more and more common (link below).

I don’t think in 2021 creationism teaching is an existential threat to the academy or medicine.

I don’t understand fully how teaching creationism (of which I don’t support) is related to opposing wokeism. There’s a Venn diagram with huge overlapping circles of those that oppose both creationism and wokeism (Dawkins/Harris).

I Refuse to Stand By While My Students Are Indoctrinated

Children are afraid to challenge the repressive ideology that rules our school. That’s why I am.

bariweiss.substack.com

 

[riflearm2]

What leads me to believe it is massive growth in DEI programs, incorporating the 1619 project into curriculum, and Kendi type anti racism becoming more and more common (link below).

You can try bringing religion into schools, but you can also do that with a "creationism bent." You said that you didn't think the religion taking over our schools had a creationism bent. When states have passed legislation for the sole purpose of discussing creationism, I think that's a huge indication that there is a "creationism bent" aspect.

I don’t think in 2021 creationism teaching is an existential threat to the academy or medicine.

I never argued otherwise. I simply argued that the religion angle being pushed into schools absolutely has a creationism bent, referenced by states passing legislation with the sole purpose of creationism being taught.

I don’t understand fully how teaching creationism (of which I don’t support) is related to opposing wokeism. There’s a Venn diagram with huge overlapping circles of those that oppose both creationism and wokeism (Dawkins/Harris).

The people in this thread don't want "wokeness" in medicine. Cool. No problem. They only want verifiable truths in medicine. Yet they have no problem with things that aren't verifiable truths (creationism) being taught to our children in science class.

I'm sure you can see how those desires don't match.

 

[KyMUfan]

They only want verifiable truths in medicine. Yet they have no problem with things that aren't verifiable truths (creationism) being taught to our children in science class.

There are basically two possible origins of Covid. Natural or man-made. The origins weren't, and haven't been verified either way but one side expressly dismissed the man-made option without consideration. It isn't the side you are pushing this off on either.

Likewise the origins of the universe haven't been proven. In the pursuit of truth and knowledge, what is wrong with giving students the pros and cons of both possibilities - evolutionism or creationism - and engage in healthy and thought-provoking debate in the process?

 

[riflearm2]

There are basically two possible origins of Covid. Natural or man-made. The origins weren't, and haven't been verified either way but one side expressly dismissed the man-made option without consideration. It isn't the side you are pushing this off on either.

Wrong. One side had to make public claims that it wasn't know if the virus was man-made in an attempt to reduce the violence against a certain demographic of people due to the unsubstantiated and harmful rhetoric coming from your side.

Likewise the origins of the universe haven't been proven. In the pursuit of truth and knowledge, what is wrong with giving students the pros and cons of both possibilities - evolutionism or creationism - and engage in healthy and thought-provoking debate in the process?

I'm embarrassed that you'd even try this argument. There are legitimate and scientific backings for the theory of evolution. There is not a single shred of evidence backing creationism.

That's the difference.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

The author of the article - Herzog - is a lesbian atheist. She has a great podcast with Jesse Singal.

Maybe some (but not all) the people in this thread - as you mentioned - may support creationism in schools. But I’d bet Herzog does not.

 

[KyMUfan]

Wrong. One side had to make public claims that it wasn't know if the virus was man-made in an attempt to reduce the violence against a certain demographic of people due to the unsubstantiated and harmful rhetoric coming from your side.

Yep, that's exactly what it is.

I'm embarrassed that you'd even try this argument. There are legitimate and scientific backings for the theory of evolution. There is not a single shred of evidence backing creationism.

Then the pros of evolutionism should outweigh the pros of creationism and it shouldn't be a hard sell to the students. What are you afraid of then? While you are at it, why don't you just go ahead and show me the proof of the origins of the universe. I'd also like you to prove to me that Covid was naturally occurring since you are still dismissing the alternate view.

 

[i am herdman]

What leads you to believe that? In the past decade, states such as Louisiana and Tennessee have passed legislation permitting creationism teaching. Many other states use tax payer money for child tax credits and other programs that have a strong creationism teaching aspect.



Yeah, that's the point. When we were growing up, education focused on the truth: science. Now, over the past decade, there has been a strong (and somewhat successful) push to teach creationism alongside evolution.

Liberals control the education system. Take it up with them.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

The article touches on one huge truth: the biggest factor in health disparities is socioeconomic status. It should be logical that finding solutions to that would increase the health outcomes of those we know to be more likely of lower status. Anything else is pretty much bullshit...but there is a lot of bullshit these days.

Then the pros of evolutionism should outweigh the pros of creationism and it shouldn't be a hard sell to the students.

Oh horseshit. You raise kids up telling them there is a sky-wizard from day one, and reinforce that by linking everything in their lives to the control of the sky-wizard, the majority will weigh everything under the assumption the sky-wizard exists. They've been sold a bill of good their whole lives. This goes for all versions of the sky-wizard from around the world.

 

[riflearm2]

Oh horseshit. You raise kids up telling them there is a sky-wizard from day one, and reinforce that by linking everything in their lives to the control of the sky-wizard, the majority will weigh everything under the assumption the sky-wizard exists. They've been sold a bill of good their whole lives. This goes for all versions of the sky-wizard from around the world.

He needs a lesson on confirmation bias.

He’s proving the irony I pointed out earlier in the thread: these deplorables don’t want “wokeness” in medicine and promote that based on their desire to wanting truth and science in medicine.

Yet when it comes to science education, they don’t give a shit if truth and science is thrown out the window. They just want creationism taught.

 

[herdfan429]

The article touches on one huge truth: the biggest factor in health disparities is socioeconomic status. It should be logical that finding solutions to that would increase the health outcomes of those we know to be more likely of lower status. Anything else is pretty much bullshit...but there is a lot of bullshit these days.


Oh horseshit. You raise kids up telling them there is a sky-wizard from day one, and reinforce that by linking everything in their lives to the control of the sky-wizard, the majority will weigh everything under the assumption the sky-wizard exists. They've been sold a bill of good their whole lives. This goes for all versions of the sky-wizard from around the world.

same goes for critical race theory and all whites are racist

 

[KyMUfan]

They just want creationism taught.

Wrong - read what I posted.

Correct - they just want evolutionism taught.

Likewise the origins of the universe haven't been proven. In the pursuit of truth and knowledge, what is wrong with giving students the pros and cons of both possibilities - evolutionism or creationism - and engage in healthy and thought-provoking debate in the process?

 

[riflearm2]

same goes for critical race theory and all whites are racist

And critical race theory is correct and rooted in fact. Creationism is not.

 

[KyMUfan]

And critical race theory is correct and rooted in fact. Creationism is not.

He needs a lesson on confirmation bias.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

same goes for critical race theory and all whites are racist

2.5 % of Americans are atheists. Are you saying 97.5% of Americans believe in this woke shit? Are the majority of kids told they will go to actual Hell if they don't get woke?

You know what critical race theory actually is? It's a fringe theory that developed because for too long mainstream America refused to acknowledge some simple truths about history.* An over-reaction. And yes, regardless of what RWNJ media tells you, it is fringe. A squawking minority.

*Personally, I prefer we simply teach the facts of history, warts and all, but conservatives have long suppressed facts (even though these assholes will say "just teach the facts and not CRT"). Don't believe me? Just Google "Texas schoolbook controversy", then see that it isn't just one controversy. And that's only one small example I could use. Both sides are ideological bullshit.

 

[KyMUfan]

You raise kids up telling them there is a sky-wizard from day one, and reinforce that by linking everything in their lives to the control of the sky-wizard, the majority will weigh everything under the assumption the sky-wizard exists.

So are you saying the state should have a larger say in the raising of children than their own parents? That's how it sounds to me.

 

[herdfan06]

@-CarlHungus- Do you still use the term "mutation" or have you adopted the use of "Pathogenic variant?"

 

[Kate Branson]

It would be nice to have some kind of measurement on which one of these is faker. Religion or this whole whatever woke thing of supposed people who can't catch whatever this break is that even if they caught it, wouldn't accept it.

Tough call. Maybe we could hook up two preachers and two BLM'ers to some cans and see which ones move it the most.

I'd think the BLM'ers, but you'd be surprised at how charged up some old guy gets when he gets to stand in front of 100 suckers and yell at them that they're going to burn in hell. As if they're not already by just wasting their time in church.

That killed 2 minutes. Next.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

So are you saying the state should have a larger say in the raising of children than their own parents? That's how it sounds to me.

 

[KyMUfan]

You know what critical race theory actually is? It's a fringe theory that developed because for too long mainstream America refused to acknowledge some simple truths about history.* An over-reaction. And yes, regardless of what RWNJ media tells you, it is fringe. A squawking minority.

At one time the same approximate percentage was attributed to gays. Look how powerful the gay lobby has become and how pervasive its agenda has become in all aspects of society - academia, the media, entertainment, even sports. Let's not ignore the current transgender movement in sports either.

But we have to worry about parents indoctrinating their children with the Ten Commandments, which much of Western Culture was based on but it's ok for the state, through publicly funded schools to indoctrinate them in other areas?

 

[KyMUfan]

That's all you got? Real mature and real intelligent.

You like to think you're intelligent but it's an act. And do you really hold yourself out to be a libertarian? Sounds like you want more of the state rather than less, comrade.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

It would be nice to have some kind of measurement on which one of these is faker. Religion or this whole whatever woke thing

I would say equally fake, but at least the woke shit is based on an observable fact: for most of American history it has been both official and de-facto policy to fvck minorities. Any minority, really. It's just that blacks and natives have been fvcked the longest and hardest.

 

[Kate Branson]

I admire the hell out of the whole thing really. I understand it too.

If you can find anything in life, the world, etc. to say is holding you back somehow, yet you keep living and working and overcoming it anyway, it feels damn great and powerful. Even if you have to make it all up in your head. Demons are important to live a charged up, kind of emotionally enriching life.

I'd imagine it's probably quite boring to just be successful if everyone really expected it. Sure as hell wouldn't know.

But I understand the "everybody hates me and is against me" game. Sometimes I kind of know I just made it up though, but I can usually delude myself enough to let it keep fueling me.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

At one time the same approximate percentage was attributed to gays.

The hell? Homosexuality is not something one believes. Ask yourself this: have you ever looked at another guy and thought you wanted to fvck him? No? You ever look at a woman and think you wanted to fvck her? Yes?There's a reason for that, and it ain't got shit to do with some concept of morality that was taught to you.

Being gay ain't no different than being black. Hell, a lot of people would choose to be black if that were possible...I for one always wanted to dunk a basketball, but could only manage to dunk a tennis ball; I bet if I were black I could have stuffed the rock.

If it were up to me, would I go as far as to have some special month in school to teach about gays? No. But should it be taught that everyone has certain inalienable rights, even if your sky-wizard says they are sinners? Absolutely.

Real mature and real intelligent.

Do you know what they call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese in France?

What is it with conservatives and projection? Accuse the other side of election fraud while engaging in fraud, tell tales of a vast liberal pedo ring while voting for actual pedos, call others unintelligent while being an obvious idiot?

Schools should straight up tell kids that what their parents taught them is bullshit, but schools should not bend over backwards to confirm that bullshit (and creationism is pure bullshit). You think the Chinks are teaching kids a sky-wizard made the universe 7000 years ago and dinosaurs lived the same time as Jesus? Fvck no. They are teaching kids AI.

 

[herdfan429]

No kids aren’t told they are going to hell just that they are racists assholes no matter what they do or how they act

 

[KyMUfan]

You think the Chinks are teaching kids a sky-wizard made the universe 7000 years ago and dinosaurs lived the same time as Jesus? Fvck no. They are teaching kids AI.

The ones they are allowed to have?
The AI they stole from others, including us?
The ones not being taught AI that are being used as child labor? So LeBron James can sell tennis shoes?
Teaching them how to win while we give out participation trophies?
Teaching them how to use a weapon while we teach ours to be scared of them?

I think you have some misguided arguments there.

Schools should straight up tell kids that what their parents taught them is bullshit,

Don't you mean the state should straight up...

You must really love the way the Chinese do things since the politicians you support seem to capitulate to them and the policies you seem to champion are out of their playbook.

Big picture and big perspective. The Chinese see the long play and you see mean tweets.

 

[Marshall Jeff]

The ones they are allowed to have?
The AI they stole from others, including us?
The ones not being taught AI that are being used as child labor? So LeBron James can sell tennis shoes?
Teaching them how to win while we give out participation trophies?
Teaching them how to use a weapon while we teach ours to be scared of them?

I think you have some misguided arguments there.



Don't you mean the state should straight up...

You must really love the way the Chinese do things since the politicians you support seem to capitulate to them and the policies you seem to champion are out of their playbook.

Big picture and big perspective. The Chinese see the long play and you see mean tweets.

Libs love the Chinese. All government all the time. Obey or die. That's their religion. Their sky wizard.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

This thread was interesting until Leeeeeroy Jenkins came in with a red herring.

 

[herdfan06]

This thread was interesting until Leeeeeroy Jenkins came in with a red herring.

Are you referring to @i am herdman?