WVU gone woke

[KyMUfan]

You’re projecting. If you actually read what I’m writing it isn’t anti European at all. It’s not anti European to say that trying to settle a continent with 10x the population would’ve been a lot harder and the end result would’ve looked a lot different. If anything it’s giving Europeans an out on a lot of the Native American thing because the vast majority of them died from disease, and that wasn’t really the Europeans’ fault.

Europe had a massive technological advantage, no doubt, but one of the larger confederations, not dealing with having 90% of their population die in a short period of time, could've made up some ground. Or maybe they wouldn’t, but you’d still have 10x the people bearing down on you. That’s harder to deal with.

Not really projecting and I understand history could have changed had not the smallpox outbreaks occurred, but I think the settling of the New World would have only been delayed and not prevented if that had not occurred.

I'm curious about the 90% mortality rate you have referenced. I'm no real history buff or student but I've never heard that large a percentage referenced before.

And you can't deny that it is en vogue for current day liberals to bash Columbus and Western culture, whether European or American, mostly while they are living a privileged life because of the sacrifice and hard work of their forebears.

 

[KyMUfan]

 

[KyMUfan]

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

You guys are fvcking idiots. The founders clearly meant for the Constitution to endure. As John Marshall wrote, “we must never forget it is a Constitution we are expounding . . . intended to endure for ages to come, and consequently to be adapted to the various crises of human affairs.”

John Marshall was one of the framers of the Constitution? But I am glad you mentioned him, and if you ever espouse some of the Originalism fad bullshit I'll pull some quotes from McCulloch v Maryland to throw at you

Let me remind you: these people turned around in a couple years and added ten amendments lol. Also never mind that these same people never bothered to justify the Convention as legal, they simply tore up the old constitution (the Articles of Confederation), fvck that shit, let's start fresh, and form a MORE perfect union, not a perfect one...there's a clue they knew they would fvck something up, same as they had before with the Articles.

Now, did they make it difficult to change things? You bet! They wanted us to think hard about it. But I think they would be surprised how little we have changed things, but not as surprised with how much the nation, hell the world, has changed...after all, the difference in their prior 200 years and the Framing isn't that great, but man the next 200 years, what a difference!

While Jefferson was not one of the Framers, I have always appreciated this thought in one of his letters to Samuel Kercheval (1816): In discussing the value of equal representation and the compromises inherent in the Constitution, Jefferson wrote, "The infancy of the subject at that moment, and our inexperience of self-government, occasioned gross departures in that draught from genuine republican canons. In truth, the abuses of monarchy had so much filled all the space of political contemplation*, that we imagined everything republican which was not monarchy. We had not yet penetrated to the mother principle, that 'governments are republican only in proportion as they embody the will of their people, and execute it'. Hence, our first constitutions (plural being important, he is knocking state constitutions, the Articles, and the actual Constitution, all of them) had really no leading principles in them." He went on the describe the Senate has being terribly un-proportional in its representation, and ridiculed the six year term as " for long terms of irresponsibility"

* This is evidenced in the Third Amendment, for sure.

as well as how large the federal government has become...

The entire point of the Convention was to form a strong federal government. The IRS? Dude, they sent an army to make people pay taxes in Shays Rebellion...why do you think they wrote a new Constitution? The elites consolidated their power in a central way. If anything, you rednecks should want to tear up the Constitution and start fresh if you really believe what you typed in that post. Of course, if we did so the true elites would likely fvck us even more in the new one, so be careful what you wish for...

 

[HerdandHokies]

Hmmm, didn't Columbus not only survive but was also able to return to Europe???

That really doesn't fit the definition of a suicide mission. Perhaps dangerous or treacherous, but not suicidal...

If I jump out a 20th story window face first it’s a suicide mission even if by sheer dumb luck someone happens to be pushing a trampoline down the street that I happen to hit.

 

[ThunderCat98]

John Marshall was one of the framers of the Constitution?

I think you're confusing "founders" and "framers." Those are two different words with different meanings.

 

[HerdandHokies]

Not really projecting and I understand history could have changed had not the smallpox outbreaks occurred, but I think the settling of the New World would have only been delayed and not prevented if that had not occurred.

I'm curious about the 90% mortality rate you have referenced. I'm no real history buff or student but I've never heard that large a percentage referenced before.

And you can't deny that it is en vogue for current day liberals to bash Columbus and Western culture, whether European or American, mostly while they are living a privileged life because of the sacrifice and hard work of their forebears.

I think it could’ve easily gone down a path something like India, where Europeans have varying levels of control in different places, but the Native majority never goes away and eventually they end up with independence again.

Or not. Maybe the Europeans could’ve pulled off a proper genocide and made room for themselves. It’s just counterfactual bullshitting either way but I enjoy it.

We don’t have exact numbers of the population before and after, but 90% seems to be the most common estimation. In some areas the drop in population was more, but we don’t know how much of that was death versus migration.

It’s en vogue to bash Columbus because he was terrible. Even his contemporaries were shocked at how he treated the native Americans (though he didn’t recognize them as such) he ran in to. The only reason he got popular in the first place was that Italians were getting lynched and the US government wanted to give them a folk hero and show all the other whiteys that Italians were white too.

 

[KyMUfan]

I think you're confusing "founders" and "framers." Those are two different words with different meanings.

Kind of like confusing liberal and libertarian???😅😉

 

[KyMUfan]

If I jump out a 20th story window face first it’s a suicide mission even if by sheer dumb luck someone happens to be pushing a trampoline down the street that I happen to hit.

Well, I have seen people jump face first off of buildings that weren't on a suicide mission...

Why do you liberals struggle so much with word meanings and the big picture???

 

[HerdandHokies]

Well, I have seen people jump face first off of buildings that weren't on a suicide mission...

Why do you liberals struggle so much with word meanings and the big picture???

Yes if someone has a plan to not die that makes sense then sure. Let’s use your example of a bungee jumper.

Let’s say a bungee jumper decided that, instead of using whatever calculations for bungee cord are generally accepted, he was going to do a 100 foot jump with a 100 foot cord.

That’s a suicide mission. He’s gonna splat into the ground. If he happens not to splat into the ground because by sheer luck an open topped truck carrying pillows drives by it doesn’t make what he did any less stupid.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

I think you're confusing "founders" and "framers." Those are two different words with different meanings.

And he was neither. Important dude? Yes. Friend of Madison and worked to get Virginia to ratify the Constitution. That too. Damn near became President? Most people don't know that.

 

[KyMUfan]

We don’t have exact numbers of the population before and after, but 90% seems to be the most common estimation. In some areas the drop in population was more, but we don’t know how much of that was death versus migration.

So historically smallpox has a 30% mortality rate. Some guy writes a book a few years ago saying it was instead 90% for Native Americans. PBS does a show based on the book and now it becomes the "most common estimation" in order to substantiate your politically driven narrative to drive your agenda. Got it.

 

[KyMUfan]

Yes if someone has a plan to not die that makes sense then sure. Let’s use your example of a bungee jumper.

Let’s say a bungee jumper decided that, instead of using whatever calculations for bungee cord are generally accepted, he was going to do a 100 foot jump with a 100 foot cord.

That’s a suicide mission. He’s gonna splat into the ground. If he happens not to splat into the ground because by sheer luck an open topped truck carrying pillows drives by it doesn’t make what he did any less stupid.

Dude, you are trying too hard.

If someone, then or now, attempts to cross the Atlantic alone in a small canoe with no water, food or other provisions then that would be considered a suicide mission by most rational individuals.

A rational person (not a liberal such as yourself) understands that a bungee cord stretches to dissipate energy and would not use a 100 foot cord on a 100 foot jump.

Likewise rational people then or now (not a liberal such as yourself) would not attempt to cross the Atlantic in a small canoe.

Columbus had a vision which morphed into a plan, had financial backing, had multiple vessels with experienced crews, was well provisioned for the time, etc. This is hardly what a rational person (again not a liberal such as yourself) would consider to be a suicide mission.

Your attempts to revise history would be somewhat better received if you used a better argument than using the phrase "suicide mission".

 

[HerdandHokies]

So historically smallpox has a 30% mortality rate. Some guy writes a book a few years ago saying it was instead 90% for Native Americans. PBS does a show based on the book and now it becomes the "most common estimation" in order to substantiate your politically driven narrative to drive your agenda. Got it.

Yes, historically it was 30% but that was mainly in a population that had some immunity to it. When the disease (and others) hit the virgin soil of the Native American population it was a lot worse than 30%.

And you’re still projecting on me having an agenda. Again, if anything, being that smallpox and other diseases were just an inevitable part of contact and not something Europeans really did, it could be seen as absolving them a bit. Europeans didn’t come to the Americas and overturn the power structure on purpose, per se, it was already overturned. You could make the argument it was anybody’s ball at that point.

Regarding Columbus, I can’t tell if you’re being intentionally obtuse or just aren’t capable of getting it. I’ve said all I really care to say on it, which is that it’s dumb to ignore the consensus (which was right) on the circumference of the earth and set off to go to Asia when that would be impossible. And it’s dumb that, given mountains of evidence, he went to his grave refusing to admit he hadn’t landed in Asia.

 

[i am herdman]

Wasn't Columbus looking for a direct trade route to China and the orient? He was trying to find a more direct way and trying to avoid conflict that was in between the trade routes at the time?

Along the way he discovers the Americas, which nobody knew was in the middle(or nobody that could record or sustain it).

Doesn't sound like a dumbass to me. He discovered a whole New World while exploring. Also sounds to me like he and the ones that went with him had sets of big old brass nuts.

 

[HerdandHokies]

Wasn't Columbus looking for a direct trade route to China and the orient? He was trying to find a more direct way and trying to avoid conflict that was in between the trade routes at the time?

Along the way he discovers the Americas, which nobody knew was in the middle(or nobody that could record or sustain it).

Doesn't sound like a dumbass to me. He discovered a whole New World while exploring. Also sounds to me like he and the ones that went with him had sets of big old brass nuts.

Yes, that’s what he was looking for. Given the ships and provisions he took he never could’ve gotten there. Had he listened to the people who knew the circumference of the earth he would’ve known that but he didn’t.

 

[WV-FAN]

If I jump out a 20th story window face first it’s a suicide mission even if by sheer dumb luck someone happens to be pushing a trampoline down the street that I happen to hit.

hopefully it's one like this, wouldn't want you disappointed.

 

[HerdandHokies]

hopefully it's one like this, wouldn't want you disappointed.

Haha I’ve seen some horror pictures/videos of the stuff that grows underneath these if you don’t have a pump.

 

[KyMUfan]

Yes, historically it was 30% but that was mainly in a population that had some immunity to it. When the disease (and others) hit the virgin soil of the Native American population it was a lot worse than 30%.

That's a fair and reasonable statement however it is not the 90% you were throwing around as a consensus at best or a fact at worst.

And you’re still projecting on me having an agenda.

Your are the one that keeps projecting that Columbus is a moron on a suicide mission. I simply disagree with that assessment.

Regarding Columbus, I can’t tell if you’re being intentionally obtuse or just aren’t capable of getting it. I’ve said all I really care to say on it, which is that it’s dumb to ignore the consensus (which was right) on the circumference of the earth and set off to go to Asia when that would be impossible.

While difficult and not yet done, was it really impossible? I keep telling you liberals that absolutes seldom work...

And it’s dumb that, given mountains of evidence, he went to his grave refusing to admit he hadn’t landed in Asia.

That could be egotism, hard-headedness, etc. and even stupidity. However that is after the fact and doesn't diminish Columbus going against the conventional wisdom of the day and to not be afraid to do so.