I'm kind of over the Doc era:
- Thread starter Marine03
- Start date
Things could be worse (snyder era) but they could definitely be better too. Just wish he showed some killer instinct. Is more aggressive cutting his highest rated recruits than he is when he makes decisions on the field. Love that he has turned this team around but he needs to be aggressive and let them know he believes in them instead of showing he is scared they will mess up and lose. Take the handcuffs off let the kids play and for the love of god someone locate the rest of this playbook before a kids fourth and final year. Legg always talks about how much a kid knows about his playbook but crap thes kids play 4 years we dont need to handcuff them for 3.
Snyder era? i'm not sure the only difference is the in and out of conference schedules we play (most years) compared to Snyder years.
.500 against the MAC tells me all I need to know about Doc.
.500 against the MAC tells me all I need to know about Doc.
If they finish with a winning season, he will stick around.....I'm beginning to question his "recruiting" skills now. It all started getting out of the MAC.... Has done nothing but snowball from there. CUSA sucks, we aren't going to another conference. We aren't good enough to deserve going to another Conf and I guess we have a young team. Mediocrity is what we have so get used to it.....NUMBER ONE THING...NOT ENOUGH $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If you love the HERD, love em! If you don't.... you don't
When you look at wins and losses against teams with winning records and factor in schedule strength there isn't some kind of giant difference between the Snyder years and Docs. The big difference is one plays 6 to 7 teams per year that finish with a losing record.
I like Doc. I like that he wins most of the games he should win, but let's be honest here. Would Snyder have done the same had he been able to drop his SoS 30 spots?
I like Doc. I like that he wins most of the games he should win, but let's be honest here. Would Snyder have done the same had he been able to drop his SoS 30 spots?
Unless someone has a ton of money to donate to the athletic department to buyout his contract then he will be here next season and even with the $$$ I doubt Hamrick would pull the trigger.
As far as the AD sees things its been 10 win seasons regardless that the majority of wins have been by defeating low level talent and teams.
Appears there is nothing in the wind to attempt to elevate the program to a more competitive conference , so as far as Hamrick is concerned everything is still good.
No..he will be the head man next season as well as the following season..have to give him time to go far in reverse but not to the level of Snyder.
As far as the AD sees things its been 10 win seasons regardless that the majority of wins have been by defeating low level talent and teams.
Appears there is nothing in the wind to attempt to elevate the program to a more competitive conference , so as far as Hamrick is concerned everything is still good.
No..he will be the head man next season as well as the following season..have to give him time to go far in reverse but not to the level of Snyder.
He recruits talent but he doesn't seem to recruit football smarts. He them lets his assistants try to develop and coach them up.
And we supposedly have this huge advantage of taking props.
We just don't look good. This is the worst MU team since 2007. Jmo
And we supposedly have this huge advantage of taking props.
We just don't look good. This is the worst MU team since 2007. Jmo
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Snyder
2005: 4-7 (SoS #86)
2006: 5-7 (SoS #88)
2007: 3-9 (SoS #73)
2008: 4-8 (SoS #77)
2009: 7-6 (SoS #86)
avg: 82
Doc
2010: 5-7 (SoS #91)
2011: 7-6 (SoS #56)
2012: 5-7 (SoS #104)
*2013: 10-4 (SoS #122)
*2014: 13-1 (SoS #124)
*2015: 10-3 (SoS #138)
avg: 106 (*128 after realignment)
so if you drop Snyder's SoS from 80 to 120 is it safe to say he picks up 3 to 4 more wins per season? even at 3 he improves to 7-4, 8-4, 6-6, 7-5, 10-3...
again, i'm far from the "fire Doc" camp. he seems like he genuinely wants to be here, and he wins most of the games he should win. just adding fuel to the discussion that maybe our huge increase in success has more to do with scheduling than coaching...
2005: 4-7 (SoS #86)
2006: 5-7 (SoS #88)
2007: 3-9 (SoS #73)
2008: 4-8 (SoS #77)
2009: 7-6 (SoS #86)
avg: 82
Doc
2010: 5-7 (SoS #91)
2011: 7-6 (SoS #56)
2012: 5-7 (SoS #104)
*2013: 10-4 (SoS #122)
*2014: 13-1 (SoS #124)
*2015: 10-3 (SoS #138)
avg: 106 (*128 after realignment)
so if you drop Snyder's SoS from 80 to 120 is it safe to say he picks up 3 to 4 more wins per season? even at 3 he improves to 7-4, 8-4, 6-6, 7-5, 10-3...
again, i'm far from the "fire Doc" camp. he seems like he genuinely wants to be here, and he wins most of the games he should win. just adding fuel to the discussion that maybe our huge increase in success has more to do with scheduling than coaching...
Omg I have now read everything. Glossing over the Mark Snyder years reminds me of people who the farther away they get from a really bad boyfriend or girlfriend they start glamorizing them into something they totally weren't. She didn't really mean to cheat on me with my best friend, it's just I didn't listen to her. He didn't mean to smack me around I just didn't have his dinner on the table when he wanted it. It's pitiful.
Mark Snyder was a HORRIBLE head coach. He set our program back for years! He didn't play a juggernaut schedule. Schedules in the 80s is what our program should be playing. If a SOS in the 80s is too tough for Marshall then we should drop down to IAA and play.
We played plenty of bad teams during Snyders era. He lost to plenty of them. His teams lost to a mediocre IAA team. His team ended UCFs long losing streak. We lost to a sub 500 ECU team in Huntington.
The absolute worst thing that Snyder brought to our program though was the absolute horrible expectations that the majority of our fans have of Marshall football now. We literally have zero expectations of anything. We pay Doc Holiday way more than we have paid any of our past coaches. We have state of the art weight rooms and IPF. We have gotten some very good teams to play at the Joan and we have more in the future. We have had on paper the best recruiting classes we have ever had. But all of that means nothing to our fans we operate with the mentality that we still play at Fairfield and are wearing yellow pants (sonny Randle reference).
Is Doc a great coach who knows. But he is at least got us back to being a nationally respected G5. He has won bowl games has beaten some P5 schools and has brought in some excellent talent along the way. I wish he made some different moves, wish he wasn't son conservative (punting from the 35) and I wish Bill Legg would retire but I still think he's done a good job here and I'm glad he's our coach.
The Mark Snyder era of Marshall football is one that should be looked at like the Stock Market crash in the 20s figure out why it happened and make sure it never happens again.
Mark Snyder was a HORRIBLE head coach. He set our program back for years! He didn't play a juggernaut schedule. Schedules in the 80s is what our program should be playing. If a SOS in the 80s is too tough for Marshall then we should drop down to IAA and play.
We played plenty of bad teams during Snyders era. He lost to plenty of them. His teams lost to a mediocre IAA team. His team ended UCFs long losing streak. We lost to a sub 500 ECU team in Huntington.
The absolute worst thing that Snyder brought to our program though was the absolute horrible expectations that the majority of our fans have of Marshall football now. We literally have zero expectations of anything. We pay Doc Holiday way more than we have paid any of our past coaches. We have state of the art weight rooms and IPF. We have gotten some very good teams to play at the Joan and we have more in the future. We have had on paper the best recruiting classes we have ever had. But all of that means nothing to our fans we operate with the mentality that we still play at Fairfield and are wearing yellow pants (sonny Randle reference).
Is Doc a great coach who knows. But he is at least got us back to being a nationally respected G5. He has won bowl games has beaten some P5 schools and has brought in some excellent talent along the way. I wish he made some different moves, wish he wasn't son conservative (punting from the 35) and I wish Bill Legg would retire but I still think he's done a good job here and I'm glad he's our coach.
The Mark Snyder era of Marshall football is one that should be looked at like the Stock Market crash in the 20s figure out why it happened and make sure it never happens again.
You completely missed the point. Yes, Snyder was terrible. Without question. Period. Is Doc that much better, or has his coaching inadequacies been masked by a schedule ranked 40 teams lower? We're not talking about the difference between 1 or 2 ass kicker money games either. 40 spots lower is the difference in playing 6 bowl teams instead of 6 teams finishing with a losing record...
I get your point Andy (by the way you are one of my favorite posters and I usually don't disagree with you) but I just completely disagree. I think Holiday maybe wouldn't have had as good of a record as he's had since he's been here if he played Snyders schedule. But I do believe that his record would have been much better playing Snyders schedule.
I agree with you Andy. Before all of the good teams left USA Doc had losing records too. Not many were impressed with him then. When he started playing a schedule of 10 or 11 of the worst teams in America he magically became a good coach and 'Marshall was back'. I know a majority of fans are happy playing this schedule and winning games but Doc is not a good in-game coach. He's a decent recruiter but he's not close to being as good as some of the coaches in herd recent history, at least in my opinion. I just don't see him getting the herd back to any national relevance and that's a shame.
"NUMBER ONE THING...NOT ENOUGH $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. If you love the HERD, love em! If you don't.... you don't"
U of L has one of the largest athletic budgets in the NCAA, Marshall does not. I remember back when Marshall played teams that had roughly the same amount of money to spend, schools like Youngstown State. Playing for and even winning national championships against programs with similar demographics and financial resources was a lot more fun than this. But, of course, the concept that Marshall is now playing on an uneven field hurts the pride of many Herd fans even though it is the plain truth.
I travel a lot for my job from coast to coat. When folks would find out that I am from WV and graduated from Marshall they would ask about the Herd's chances to "win it all". That never happens anymore. I suppose that I am of that minority that thinks it is more fun to be a big fish in a small pond...
U of L has one of the largest athletic budgets in the NCAA, Marshall does not. I remember back when Marshall played teams that had roughly the same amount of money to spend, schools like Youngstown State. Playing for and even winning national championships against programs with similar demographics and financial resources was a lot more fun than this. But, of course, the concept that Marshall is now playing on an uneven field hurts the pride of many Herd fans even though it is the plain truth.
I travel a lot for my job from coast to coat. When folks would find out that I am from WV and graduated from Marshall they would ask about the Herd's chances to "win it all". That never happens anymore. I suppose that I am of that minority that thinks it is more fun to be a big fish in a small pond...
Anyone that doesn't think our schedules have been easier the last 4-5 years is delusional.
It is an interesting argument, to say the least.
However, one can't just discount the fact that the first 3 seasons with higher SOS were also Doc's first 3 years, right? I don't think anyone could expect much after inheriting the mess Snyduh left. Also, think of how different 2012 would have looked had Doc not made the awful mistake of hiring Chris "I was working at a bank before this" Rippon. There were probably close to 10 wins there had it not been for the defense losing half of our games for us.
I am in the camp who think Doc is an upgrade from Snyder, but there are also a multitude of things I don't like or am not impressed with when it comes to Doc.
He needs to figure out how to manage the players he recruits. Also, he needs to stop kicking them off without letting those who support the program know at least the very basic reason they're being kicked off. He needs to acknowledge Legg is a giant turd and flush him out. Heater steps up when he needs to, but Legg is a consistent disappointment.
Majority of posters in this thread were over the Doc era way before today. Just like the Miami fans had the Bring Back Butch banners, we need to start the Bring Back Snyder banners. Who's with me? He would have 3 straight 10 win seasons with our schedules too, the Internet posters have spoken.
Where in the heck do you think he would go? Nobody with any hope of improving their team would hire him
Um considering how many wins Doc has had on average with the program I'm not sure exactly who you think could possibly do better...
I don't like to speak ill of Snyder out of respect to him being a former player but we were bad under his watch for so many different reasons. So many. I wish him the best wherever he is now but to fantasize about Snyder is to have a short, short memory.
I didn't see anyone on this thread suggesting Snyder come back. Simply pointing out his SOS was much higher than Docs.
He's a good coach. My point is Doc has won ten games three seasons in a row. There is no higher ceiling for us. The worst mistake a program makes is firing quality coaches because of delusions of grandeur.
Also- Doc is a good coach but an even better recruiter. In a conference like CUSA getting talent sometimes trumps game scheme. Doc wouldn't thrive at a better school, but he's perfect for us.
I'm kinda over our fans... We lost to the number 3 team in the country, a team that could very well end up in the college football playoff, and Doc is all of a sudden not a good coach. The fact is, we aren't getting anyone better, and we are certainly not getting anyone better who is going to stick around.
I rarely post but I am so sick of you internet fans wanting rid of Doc. You all must have amnesia as the last 3 years of 10 wins or more and last year did it with a true freshman QB. This year we have a very young team look we are starting a true freshman CB and our secondary is very young and we already have 2 great players sitting out after transferring from Miami who are going to really help us next year. Give our team tiem to grow and I bet you by the end of the year this is a good football team. BTW I don't see other CUSA teams tearing it up this year either and our biggest rival (WKU) blew a double digit lead at home and lost to Vandy giving up 31 points that is not good either do you think Brohm needs fired too? We are 4-0 in bowl games under Coach Holliday. The man can coach with anybody and what is really sad about you guys are holding Doc to the standard he sit for us. MU is not the dream coaching job in the country sorry to break the news to you but it is not. I love MU but we are not LSU and even with what coach makes now coaches are not going to be lined up to come to Huntington. That is just a fact of life. You should be very happy that we can compete for conference championships and win bowl games and we have a coach who loves Huntington and does everything in his power to make this football team the best it can be. I know for a fact how hard coach works he is a great coach and even better person!!
I agree with you staple8. Sometimes fans can get overemtional. Bottom line when you look at it realistically is Coach Doc and his staff are doing a great job.I really wouldn't worry about too many on this board staple 8 because it's just a few that bashes Doc when he loses, praises after a win. You know, that thin line between love and hate relationship. Most Herd fans understand the process of the greater good for the program. So, in the words of the late great comedian Bernie Mac, "if people don't like they way Coach Doc and his staff is leading the program, f&$k em. I'm paraphrasing a lil too folks. Have a great Navy day and Go Herd!
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staplet, you make some good points but your post reeks of typical WV defeatist attitude. You almost sound like Kayo Marcum talking about our program...
it wasn't too long ago that we had droves of people telling us how lucky we were to have Mark Snyder and we'd never be able to find and afford someone better. Personally, I like Doc. I think he is seriously being held back by Legg...
it wasn't too long ago that we had droves of people telling us how lucky we were to have Mark Snyder and we'd never be able to find and afford someone better. Personally, I like Doc. I think he is seriously being held back by Legg...
You are the type of fan who thinks money means nothing when it comes to a football program well guess what it does. We have had major cutbacks backs in funding maybe u are not from WV and don't know what is going on in this state. I take great offense to your comment about WV defeatist attitude and you are the same type of fan that doesn't understand what our coaches are up against.
WTF is that suppose to mean? U people are so stupid u are not even worth my time I am done with this board!! Well I would not expect someone from Richmond who probably never comes to a game to understand what is going on at MU!
I think most people, if not all, really like Doc and his passion. He seems to love the school and I appreciate that greatly. The issue I see is that Doc is an old school guy and hardliner. Again, I like that aspect, but the problem lies with recruiting kids that knowingly have issues and bringing them into Huntington, hoping and thinking he can turn them around and keep them on campus for 4 years. Unfortunately, most of the kids get in trouble and he boots them.
As he has gotten further in his tenure, he seems to be taking more and more chances on kids and now because of massive yearly attrition our depth has taken a hit and freshmen are being asked to step up.
I think its time Doc and staff started focusing on more hard working 2 star guys than trying to hit a home run with a 3 or 4 star kid who may or may not ever see the field for more than one year, if that.
Add to this Legg's history of ultra conservative play calling when he doesn't have a veteran laden offense to work with and you have our predicament.
I can see right now, we will never get out of CUSA, the powers that be know the finances aren't there and they are fine with that. Thus we pad our W column with wins against teams that really shouldn't be playing D1 ball like Charlotte. In addition, the MAC, which has been incredibly stable, has passed CUSA in competitiveness, stature and revenue.
To me, Doc is still much better than Snyder.
As he has gotten further in his tenure, he seems to be taking more and more chances on kids and now because of massive yearly attrition our depth has taken a hit and freshmen are being asked to step up.
I think its time Doc and staff started focusing on more hard working 2 star guys than trying to hit a home run with a 3 or 4 star kid who may or may not ever see the field for more than one year, if that.
Add to this Legg's history of ultra conservative play calling when he doesn't have a veteran laden offense to work with and you have our predicament.
I can see right now, we will never get out of CUSA, the powers that be know the finances aren't there and they are fine with that. Thus we pad our W column with wins against teams that really shouldn't be playing D1 ball like Charlotte. In addition, the MAC, which has been incredibly stable, has passed CUSA in competitiveness, stature and revenue.
To me, Doc is still much better than Snyder.
The biggest difference between Snyder and Holliday is that Snyder was limited to 1-2 props a year, while Holliday is allowed to have 15-20 on campus at any given time. The most accurate comparison would be Holliday to Pruett.
Another harsh truth people don't want to realize is that the perception of our program has slipped significantly over the last 20 years. We went from a team that was too big for the MAC to a team scheduling home-and-homes with FCS teams and calling it a conference slate. I heard people saying a week or two ago about how we're the best G5 program, blah blah blah. When was the last time we made any noise nationally? 2014? When we spent the whole season being mocked for our weak-ass schedule, only to get shown up by Western Kentucky, and the cherry on the top was a win against Northern Illinois?
By the way, good thing we let UofL off the hook that year, huh? That really worked out for us.
Another harsh truth people don't want to realize is that the perception of our program has slipped significantly over the last 20 years. We went from a team that was too big for the MAC to a team scheduling home-and-homes with FCS teams and calling it a conference slate. I heard people saying a week or two ago about how we're the best G5 program, blah blah blah. When was the last time we made any noise nationally? 2014? When we spent the whole season being mocked for our weak-ass schedule, only to get shown up by Western Kentucky, and the cherry on the top was a win against Northern Illinois?
By the way, good thing we let UofL off the hook that year, huh? That really worked out for us.
Wow.
Anybody who thinks of the Marcum/Snyder era as anything but a complete failure either does not remember, has an anti-Doc and/or anti-MH agenda (Chuckie), or is nuts.
Doc was left with a totally disfunctional mess. The cupboard was totally bare. MH was left playing the worst hand ever dealt at a time when we really needed a good hand due to the on-going conference shifts. Facts.
Doc is not going anywhere. He will be here until he decides to retire. At his age, no bigger school is going to take a chance on him, and justifying letting him go is impossible. Doc has, health and such being OK, maybe 7 to 9 years before he retires.
Anybody who thinks of the Marcum/Snyder era as anything but a complete failure either does not remember, has an anti-Doc and/or anti-MH agenda (Chuckie), or is nuts.
Doc was left with a totally disfunctional mess. The cupboard was totally bare. MH was left playing the worst hand ever dealt at a time when we really needed a good hand due to the on-going conference shifts. Facts.
Doc is not going anywhere. He will be here until he decides to retire. At his age, no bigger school is going to take a chance on him, and justifying letting him go is impossible. Doc has, health and such being OK, maybe 7 to 9 years before he retires.
You mean like Rakeem Cato and Tommy Shular? Devon Johnson? Blake Frohnapfel? Eric Frohnapfel? Ryan Yurachek? Darryl Roberts?
Doc is already doing what you say he needs to do more of.. those guys were 2 star or lower guys that have been coached up and developed. Guys who are hard workers. We as fans focus on the "big guys" who often times don't work out. But make no mistake, what makes Doc such a good recruiter is the depth of guys he's able to bring in.
Little bit a flaw in the logic with props here. MS brought in some, most washed out. There in lies the difference between Holiday and MS. MS also brought in cancers and kept them. Maybe Holiday is a little too harsh with the dismissals, but at least he stands his ground and wants a functional program. Just figured I'd point that out. Pruett wasn't that great with the props either the last few years he was here. Very Very few made it to the field.
Nah, following "Mops for Props" the administration came in and demanded that non-qualifiers be eliminated from the program. Its a big reason Pruett quit - scholarship reductions plus the inability to use props (who were the butter on our bread for years) meant doom.
Mark Snyder was an atrocious coach, don't get me wrong, but something we discount a lot when evaluating our coaches is that Marshall is one of those schools (Boise is another) that makes a name for itself turning kids with teardrop tattoos into college graduates. Bad coaches should be able to win here, so long as they can keep these kids from sending harassing text messages or punching gay men.
Mark Snyder was an atrocious coach, don't get me wrong, but something we discount a lot when evaluating our coaches is that Marshall is one of those schools (Boise is another) that makes a name for itself turning kids with teardrop tattoos into college graduates. Bad coaches should be able to win here, so long as they can keep these kids from sending harassing text messages or punching gay men.
That's because Doc had to clean house when he took over as Snyder had turned the program into a dumpster fire. Once he had his players in place we started winning. Sure, it could be better, but we usually beat everyone we are suppose to beat and beat a team or two the media says we shouldn't.
