About half of our recruiting classes annually are hard-working 2-star recruits. You know what you get when you recruit nothing but hard-working 2-star recruits--the Snyder years. Right now 36 of 75 scholarship players that play offense or defense were rated as 3-stars or better coming out of HS or JUCO. Only 8 of those 36 are currently starters do to many being underclassmen, but 27 of 36 have contributed this season with only 11 of the 27 contributors being upperclassmen. We are young overall if you look at the roster.
I'm kind of over the Doc era:
- Thread starter Marine03
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About half of our recruiting classes annually are hard-working 2-star recruits. You know what you get when you recruit nothing but hard-working 2-star recruits--the Snyder years. Right now 36 of 75 scholarship players that play offense or defense were rated as 3-stars or better coming out of HS or JUCO. Only 8 of those 36 are currently starters do to many being underclassmen, but 27 of 36 have contributed this season with only 11 of the 27 contributors being upperclassmen. We are young overall if you look at the roster.
Who recruited those guys?
Can't have it both ways. If Doc is the super recruiter, why doesn't he get more fully qualified, top ranked talent?
2010 - 25 recruits listed on Rivals. 15 did not finish their eligibility at Marshall.
2011 - 24 recruits listed on Rivals. 10 did not finish their eligibility at Marshall.
2012 - 20 recruits listed on Rivals. 14 did not finish their eligibility at Marshall.
2013 - 22 recruits listed on Rivals. 11 are already gone.
2014 - 26 recruits listed on Rivals. 10 are already gone.
2015 - 26 recruits listed on Rivals. 8 are already gone.
6 year totals - 143 listed recruits. 68, and counting, did not make it through their senior year. That's real close to 50%. The guys from 2012 and 2013 should be seniors this year (depending on who redshirted). Why are we young? Why were we young last year? See above. Instead of having 3 and 4 star scholarship players in their senior year, we have a bunch of additional walk ones on scholarship.
Because this is Marshall. Leaving out the once in a generation kid actually from here or with some other connection to the school, there are no 12 year old little boys begging God every night to let them grow up to play for Marshall. And I can say the same thing about every member of CUSA or any other G5 league, and about 60% of the so-called power 5 (including USPAM).
So Doc, and arguing about whether Doc is a great recruiter is like arguing about if the sky is blue or not, goes out and recruits to Marshall. That means:
- Kids that have less stars than others, either because they have been under-rated, or because you think you can build them up.
- Kids with behavior / lifestyle issues.
- Kids with grade issues.
Some of those low rated kids are hidden gems, and some get in the system and build them up (most WV or KY kids are at least a year behind because of how our HS work contrasted to states like FL). Some don't work out and move on.
Some kids with grade issues get the help they need/mature/get in the HELP program (God bless the HELP program, IMHO Marshall's greatest service to the state) and make it. Some don't work out and move on.
Some kids get out of the south Florida cess pool/get away from their hodlum buddies/meet people from the broader culture/have a strong male influnce for the first time/grow the f*** up and do great. Some don't work out and move on.
Thinking that somebody chooses Marshall over Notre Dame or Texas or even NC State or UK is Spamite level delusion.
Don't you dare bring logic into this debate! Every kid in America grows up wanting to play for the HERD!
So then he's just a normal recruiter, not a super recruiter, because he can't overcome the objections to close the sell with those qualified, highly rated, good character recruits?
Like you said, anyone can recruit to schools like Florida, wvu or North Carolina State. It doesn't take a great salesman to get a store to carry Coke on its shelves. It takes a great salesman to get them to give space to an unknown product. There are a variety of ways to overcome the objections you face and you stress the advantages you have over the known commodity.
Bottom line is that you can't win with players that aren't here, so recruiting guys that don't make it through their eligibility is worthless regardless of how talented they are. It's one of the reasons Doc has consistently lost to all the 2 star recruits up in Athens. Those guys are there for 4-5 years and are able to execute their system much better than our "more talented" revolving door of freshman and sophomores. You are better off getting better character, harder working guys that will be here long enough, and have the ability, to fully grasp your systems. Doc is going deeper and deeper down the NQ rabbit hole chasing the few superstars that will make a season or two. He started out taking a few a year, now we are taking so many that our 2017 class is essentially already full with only a handful of new high school kids in the class.
Are we seriously saying Doc has issues recruiting?? I am frustrated like all of you are but man that is really reaching.
The man has helped us lead or be in the top 5 of G5 recruiting since he got here. No, not all of them stay, and we do have to take risks on some but overall, talent is not an issue here. I like most of you guys but its getting a bit ridiculous on here.
The man has helped us lead or be in the top 5 of G5 recruiting since he got here. No, not all of them stay, and we do have to take risks on some but overall, talent is not an issue here. I like most of you guys but its getting a bit ridiculous on here.
Doc is a super-recruiter because Doc out recruits dozens of other schools, including much of the so-called power 5, in exactly the same boat. Finding under-rated players, finding kids that need built up, and, yes, finding kids that need academic or behavior structure (and knowing the difference between that and just dumber than a box of rocks or just plain thug). Not everybody makes it.
Saying Doc should be somehow convincing kids that are good enough to play in the SEC or the top of the other so-called power 5 is as delusional as the Spamies that believe the idiocy about their recruits.
As you say, the alternative is the MAC way. Future phys-ed teachers of Ohio vs. future phys-ed teachers of Michigan. No thanks.
Saying Doc should be somehow convincing kids that are good enough to play in the SEC or the top of the other so-called power 5 is as delusional as the Spamies that believe the idiocy about their recruits.
As you say, the alternative is the MAC way. Future phys-ed teachers of Ohio vs. future phys-ed teachers of Michigan. No thanks.
We only have 7 NQs that will be in the 2017 class and 5 of the 7 signed with us in 2016. We have two big time transfers from Miami (FL) that we recruited in HS that are sitting out this season that will be starters next season. The 2017 class is shaping up to be very strong as well with 5 high quality 2017 recruits committed to the program. There is more to the recruiting classes than just those players listed on the Rivals commit list. We have lost some high level players to stupidity the last couple of years, but it seems to happen to just about every program nowadays. Also, the last I read, over half of our current scholarship players were of the hard-working 2-star variety, and all of our recruiting classes are the same way.
Go back and adjust our class rankings taking out those that never showed, or never played for us. Take 2015, we had the #74 class with 11 three stars. Five of those three stars never did, and never will, play a snap here. Without those 5 guys, we probably end up 10-15 spots lower in the recruiting rankings. Three of those, Speedy Howard, Von Davis, and Roosevelt Lawrence were DBs that we seriously could have used this year. The year before that it was Quintavious Knight who was the big DB recruit that never made it. Add those losses to Rowe, Tindal, Leggett and Lang not finishing their eligibility here, and you can see why we are young, under-talented, and thin in the backend of our defense.
Rock makes a great point. every Feb we all get wrapped up in recruiting and team rankings. every year we finish at the top or near the top of CUSA, but if you go back and re-rate we easily drop several spots. do the other schools drop as well? possibly... maybe something interesting for someone to look in to...
Demetrius Johnson was supposed to be be big time from our 2014 class, too. He was slotted to play Safety.
Seven represents 30% of the class. We will also be counting kids like Richardson who won't even be here next year and isn't giving all that much this year. We have to try and get transfers because we keep cycling out the guys who should be our upperclassmen, or not recruiting positions well enough. Plus we have had very mixed results with transfers. Sometimes we are just picking up the recruiting mistakes other schools made (like the 4 star corner from VT who couldn't get on the field here and left or Richardson who can't unseat our CBs that are getting burnt every game).
No doubt, but Brady looks the part in practice. I had multiple people tell me he's currently our best WR (which may not be saying all that much).
Young, based on what he did at Miami, should play right away here.
Yeah, I like Brady based on practice, but it kind of reinforces my main point. He was a guy who would have been a contributor in Miami if he hadn't gotten in trouble. Here he is better than every scholarship athlete we have at his position. We have recruited a lot of good WRs, but the good ones don't seem to make it, or stick around long.
It all has a way of balancing out if you think of it though, if we have 7 nonqualifiers from previous year, 3 don't make it, but then you are bringing in more the following year etc, it still balances the rankings to what they say they are because there are several transfers, or last minute additions that never get added to the commit list. I mean you can't just take away from what was lost by also not adjusting for what was added by someone becoming qualified..........its confusing to say the least but from what I am seeing, it still all balances out.
Brady was considered to be Miami's best WR too according to Fever. Fever is a big Cane fan and follows them closely.
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I think everyone should calm down. First, I encourage everyone to go look at the depth chart. This team is only starting two seniors on the both sides of the ball. This is a young team. Second, I do think Doc did a poor job of setting expectations. Doc made it sound like this team was ready to win big while still being young and I think that was Doc's ego getting the best of him. Do I think the future is bright? Yes, but Doc had no business telling the fans that we were ready to keep winning at a high level going. Doc needed to tell fans to "relax with this team because we may have some bumps along the way but keep the faith it will be ok".
The problem with Brady is he needed to get out of the Golden environment at Miami and when a new coach comes in, attrition happens and Brady and CMR both decided it would be best for him to get out of Miami. If he would have stayed he easily would be their star WR this year. Brad Kaaya came out and said Brady was their fastest and most phsyical WR they had and was disappointed he wouldnt be back. Also Brady is from the same HS as Keith Baxter and Ricardo Williams and Richt, Brown, and Hartley all vouched for him.
Ill make the bold prediction that Brady will be the conference newcomer of the year on Offense and Juwon Young will be Defensive newcomer of the year next year
I don't agree because I see the value of a kid that has 4-5 years in the program as greater than a kid that comes in for a year or two. It's easily arguable that we have more gifted players at LB this year than last, but they're not nearly as effective because McKelvey and Hunter played a heck of a lot of snaps together. By the time transfers and Jucos build those bonds their career is over. Turnover is a killer.
That's very laughable! You must be high, smoking that sticky ickiee. UC's head coach, his sack probably hasn't even dropped yet.
not to mention Snyder was rebuilding as well....heck Doc came into a team coming off a bowl, Snyder didn't.
really he has yet to win a conference title at Ohio. He lost to Texas State at home this year no thanks
Actually Snyder did
2004 team embarrassed Marshall in Fort Worth
Bobby P quit and Snyder was the coach for the 2005 squad.
So now we want to fire coaches that are producing results- OMG ya gotta be kidding me! The season is young. We are playing 2 ACC schools this year. Please let us lose 7-8 games before starting a thread like this
But for the most part owns Docs ass. He coaches in a better conference and only has 1 less conference title than Doc does. And he's never given up 65 to Akron
Solich > Doc
If we ever lose 8 games in a season when we have Charlotte, ODU, FIU, FAU, at least one of UNT, UTSA or UTEP and a FCS on the schedule then we should just hang up the cleats.
I always start a season looking at what should be auto wins and then gauge success by how far over .500 we go in the other games. The FCS, Charlotte, FIU, FAU, UNT, ODU and, quite frankly, Akron, should have been the auto wins for the year. So the way I look at it, we start the season 7-0. Truth be told, in the new CUSA we start every season at least 6-0 unless some of the crap teams start to improve.
ha ha saying the MAC is better than C-USA is a mute point. That is like saying the Big 10 is better than the Big 12. Some years that is true other years that is open for debate. Both MAC and C-USA are conferences with bad teams in them.For the record, Frank has taken plenty of beat downs up here by the likes of Kent State and Buffalo eg.11 years and no conference title not exactly Knute Rockne.
Frank is 82-63 currently now in his 12 th season in Athens. I live in Athens and I assure you the people here want to get rid of him.Doc is 51-30 now in his 7th season.Frank is a good coach but you can have him I will take Doc.
Seems to me Doc doesnt always play the best players and Im tired of his excuses. Best man plays,,period
Some people's misuse of words in common phrases is mind bottling. You know, like your mind is trapped in a bottle.*
Bonus points for whoever can name the reference that came from.
I have followed Docs career, and Doc is a recruiter first and this shows in how he treats kids. Its been my opinion why a lot of WV kids are passed over. Why? Doc takes care of kids from high school programs he likes, high school coaches he likes, and high school programs that can send him other kids in the future. Doc takes care of his Florida kids first because he is familiar with those programs, and because he wants more kids from Florida. Doc may need those programs if he takes another job, so that's why certain kids get taken care of. One of the reasons he and Nehlen had a falling out was his Florida kids started getting into trouble and they had to be kicked off(some of those mid to late 90's teams had bad leadership). I think this whole thing of Doc kicking kids off is because he learned from that period that you can't have attitudes controlling your team so he is not going over the top on giving kids second chances. He mostly likely could give some kids second chances but he wont because he knows that Florida attitudes can kill a team
That may be true. However, i dont know that it explains the pittman situation. Ive never heard anything bad about him. Not saying there isnt a problem, just that its not made it outside the program.
This has happened several other times as well.
This has happened several other times as well.
The point is its not what Pittman did but its about the others. Are they from a High School Doc has promised to take care of their kids?
I don't know this is the case, but trust me Docs is about take care of his recruiting pipeline. Foster is from SC and Pittman from Hampton. Doc wont be getting many Hampton kids with ODU in the league so their you go.
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We aren't talking about value. I will agree with you about that. I am saying that any given year we have about the same number of highly touted recruits based on what I said. You can't degrade a recruiting class because a player didn't make it and not take into account transfers and/or late additions that keep said ranking pretty much right where it was. That's my point.
I agree though, I talented 2 star that sticks around is better than a 4 star that leaves after a year..........
bottom line: if the ability on the field is close Doc gives the playing time to the kid from a school he thinks will help him in the future with prospects. Its how he thinks, because Doc is a recruiter first
