"I'm not a teacher for the money."

[GK4Herd]

Wow, that's long. I'm running short on time today -- the tanning salon(?) and gym call -- so I'll make a couple points and read and respond to the rest later.

First, I didn't say taxpayers shouldn't pay for teachers healthcare. I said taxpayers shouldn't have to keep teachers' healthcare costs level while everyone else's are skyrocketing. Public employees already get pensions and better benefits than almost everyone in the private sector. Why should taxpayers have to absorb premium increases in addition to having to pay more for their own healthcare.

I'm not even sure where you're going with the insurance commission analogy. I read it twice and still can't figure out what it has to do with anything. Everyone is worried about how they're going to pay their bills and support their families. But WV is broke and can't afford to start giving public employees (teachers or otherwise) raises and level premium health insurance. It's just not sustainable.

You have some valid points on the sustainability of health coverage. The health care system in this country is broke and that’s the larger issue. The problem is that there are just too many people enriching themselves in the system. Everyone is going to have to make concessions to fix it.

As far as the YMCA and tanning...probably a little cheap, but the fact is I’m the only teacher who posts on this board (as far as I know) and you fired a shot with the OP as well as the snide comment in another thread about teachers needing to be held accountable. Those shots fall directly on me and I retaliated. Like I said I’ve always liked you. I really don’t think you’re the person you present yourself to be here at times.

As far as my insurance analogy...I believe it to be dead on. You asked why the taxpayer should foot the bill for the teachers’ healthcare increases. Teaching is like any other job out there. The products and service come at a cost. I’m saying that everyone foots the bill for increases of expenses in every job in existence through cost increases in the products they provide or the service they deliver. Teaching is no different.

 

[big_country90]

GK...I'm staying out of the original argument. But your analogies don't fit because the market dictates what insurance brokers and pharmacists make. If enough people wanted to shop for their own insurance and take the time to educate themselves on each kind of policy then they wouldn't need a broker. That's not the case with teachers. Public school teachers are paid 100% by taxpayer dollars...not private money. So there are no market based solutions that can be applied.

 

[GK4Herd]

Here is some advice to teachers: If you want to make more money don't be a teacher. Come on out in the private sector. Many won't make it and others would crawl back to teaching.

I don’t know if this meets your standards, but I make over three times more in the “private sector” then I do teaching school. So you tell me if I could make it. I didn’t “crawl back” to teaching. I chose to come back. I left it because I had to and returned because I could. The perception that public teachers couldn’t make it in the real world is just bullsh**.

I have a unique perspective. I’ve done both. And there’s no doubt in my mind that many more teachers would make it in the private sector than those in the private sector could make it in teaching.

 

[GK4Herd]

That was his entire point. I don't know what you and others tried to attack his post

You’ve lost me. When does stating facts and posting a link to support it amount to an attack?

 

[GK4Herd]

GK...I'm staying out of the original argument. But your analogies don't fit because the market dictates what insurance brokers and pharmacists make. If enough people wanted to shop for their own insurance and take the time to educate themselves on each kind of policy then they wouldn't need a broker. That's not the case with teachers. Public school teachers are paid 100% by taxpayer dollars...not private money. So there are no market based solutions that can be applied.

You’re not following the point. It doesn’t matter whether the cost is paid by taxes or in the open market. Increases in expenses are passed on to the people. And at the end of the day the money people pay to support a product or service in the open market is the same color as the money spent to support a service funded through taxes.

 

[HerdBuckeye]

44th in education
I think we are getting what we pay for

Oh that’s better than it used to be.

 

[C.K. Ocsevol-Evad]

Here is some advice to teachers: If you want to make more money don't be a teacher. Come on out in the private sector. Many won't make it and others would crawl back to teaching.

But, let's think about this and remember I am the son and the husband of public school teachers.

My wife has a masters and about 15 years experience. She was also a testing coordinator and pulled some extra duties. She was pulling in nearly 60k a year before she gave some of that up. She has some teachers she worked with that had about the same experience. She worked extra hours running some of the clubs and doing testing.

One of her friend's didn't do all that. Same amount of education and experience. the other teacher did have her National Board Desertification.


Her friend goes in at 7 leaves by 3, maybe 3:30. Does some emails from home. Does a few extra things like graduation and events throughout the year. Has June through August off. Off two weeks at Christmas. A spring break. The major holidays off. Can build up sick time and vacation time. Can bank those and carry them over which doesn't happen a lot in the private world. Pays low health care cost. Has fantastic retirement system. A lot of job security and tenure.

That is basically a part time gig for nearly 60 grand a year.

The biggest headache would be dealing with the kids, parents, and admin. But, many teachers blow that shit off and milk it . My wife wil tell you that and she is a teacher. Go in a 7 leave at 3 basically for 8 months out of there once you take away all your Christmas time, spring break, and holidays. With some of the best benefits there are.

I get what Rox is saying. I am in the private sector. You don't think we have employees hurting because of health care cost , wages, benefits.

Shut the **** Up Already, teachers.

This isn’t foolish.

Compare those in the private sector with an advanced degree and 20 years of experience to a teacher with an advanced degree and 20 years of experience. Daily, teachers are working about 8 hours per day. They then average at least an hour a day on lesson plans, grades, communication with parents, etc. Basically, they work about as much as somebody in the private sector on days they work.

Yes, teachers get more vacation time. It’s not quite a quarter of a year like you claim. But lets compare the daily life of each.

In the private sector, one can easily browse online and post on message board for hours of the day. As a teacher? No way. Private sector, you can easily take a 90 minute lunch. Teachers? No way. Private sector allows leaving the office a few hours early to golf. Teaching? Nope. “Work” for salesman encompasses taking clients golfing, drinking, to businessman special day baseball games. Teachers? They’re still stuck doing actual work. Private sector? You can come in late, start the day off by “doing salescalls” before heading to the office (called sleeping in later). Teachers have no chance to do any of that.

Now, reality is that teachers could about 2 months more of vacation time than private sector. But for what they’re paid compared to an equal in terms of education and experience in the private sector, they aren’t compensated the same.

And for the health insurance/protesting . . . a key part is that these teacher unions have agreed to certain deals with the promise and assurance that benefits would be maintained at a reasonable cost. That promise has been tossed out the door.

Imagine if you were hired with the agreement that your commission would be tiered. Then, when you hit the certain tiered levels, they changed their mind and reneged on the promise by not increasing the commission, even though you took lower salary for years building up to that commission with the promise that it would pay off once you sell more.

 

[GK4Herd]

This isn’t foolish.

Compare those in the private sector with an advanced degree and 20 years of experience to a teacher with an advanced degree and 20 years of experience. Daily, teachers are working about 8 hours per day. They then average at least an hour a day on lesson plans, grades, communication with parents, etc. Basically, they work about as much as somebody in the private sector on days they work.

Yes, teachers get more vacation time. It’s not quite a quarter of a year like you claim. But lets compare the daily life of each.

In the private sector, one can easily browse online and post on message board for hours of the day. As a teacher? No way. Private sector, you can easily take a 90 minute lunch. Teachers? No way. Private sector allows leaving the office a few hours early to golf. Teaching? Nope. “Work” for salesman encompasses taking clients golfing, drinking, to businessman special day baseball games. Teachers? They’re still stuck doing actual work. Private sector? You can come in late, start the day off by “doing salescalls” before heading to the office (called sleeping in later). Teachers have no chance to do any of that.

Now, reality is that teachers could about 2 months more of vacation time than private sector. But for what they’re paid compared to an equal in terms of education and experience in the private sector, they aren’t compensated the same.

And for the health insurance/protesting . . . a key part is that these teacher unions have agreed to certain deals with the promise and assurance that benefits would be maintained at a reasonable cost. That promise has been tossed out the door.

Imagine if you were hired with the agreement that your commission would be tiered. Then, when you hit the certain tiered levels, they changed their mind and reneged on the promise by not increasing the commission, even though you took lower salary for years building up to that commission with the promise that it would pay off once you sell more.

Exactly rifle. When I was in the insurance business I might have consumed a lot of time during the day, but if you compressed the actual work it was only a fraction of what I work as a teacher. I could slip out to handle personal matters. I could make personal calls. I could pay my bills. I engaged in conversation with coworkers. I took long lunches. I took clients out for lunch and a drink or maybe a round of golf and called all of it work. I might have consumed twelve hours, but maybe only worked four. But when I teach it’s wall to wall. You can’t even go to the bathroom when needed and when you do you rush because you have to leave your class unsupervised for a minute. I get to school just at 7:00 and most days don’t leave till after 4:30. And it is engaged and focused work wall to wall.

And I’m telling you it is just plain wrong that teachers couldn’t function in the outside world like many here believe. To be completely honest, when I came back into teaching after 21 years I had the same opinion. I think it’s human nature to believe what we choose to do is more valuable and difficult. It lets us believe that our own accomplishments are more significant and worthy. It elevates the notion of our own self worth. But when I got back into it I was very surprised by the intelligence and work ethics of teachers. They are every bit as capable if not more so then those outside of teaching. People place value on money and they mistakenly believe that the more you earn the more capable and valuable you are. That and when you have that great sales year you like to believe that not just anyone could do it.

Teachers aren’t considering a strike because of a lack of pay. They’re considering a strike because of a lack of respect. And I’ll be damned if I’m going to take shots at my livelihood without defending it.

 

[i am herdman]

I don’t know if this meets your standards, but I make over three times more in the “private sector” then I do teaching school. So you tell me if I could make it. I didn’t “crawl back” to teaching. I chose to come back. I left it because I had to and returned because I could. The perception that public teachers couldn’t make it in the real world is just bullsh**.

I have a unique perspective. I’ve done both. And there’s no doubt in my mind that many more teachers would make it in the private sector than those in the private sector could make it in teaching.

I wrote most. I did not say all.

 

[GK4Herd]

I wrote most. I did not say all.

I’m saying most also. Most teachers could make it easily outside of teaching. Jesus I’d love to be able to trade you jobs for a week. I’ve been needing a vacation.

 

[big_country90]

You’re not following the point. It doesn’t matter whether the cost is paid by taxes or in the open market. Increases in expenses are passed on to the people. And at the end of the day the money people pay to support a product or service in the open market is the same color as the money spent to support a service funded through taxes.

The obvious difference is that there isn’t a choice on whether or not to pay taxes, but people do have a choice on how to support private industry. When my insurance went up, I didn’t have the taxpayers to fall back on.

 

[i am herdman]

This isn’t foolish.

Compare those in the private sector with an advanced degree and 20 years of experience to a teacher with an advanced degree and 20 years of experience. Daily, teachers are working about 8 hours per day. They then average at least an hour a day on lesson plans, grades, communication with parents, etc. Basically, they work about as much as somebody in the private sector on days they work.

Yes, teachers get more vacation time. It’s not quite a quarter of a year like you claim. But lets compare the daily life of each.

In the private sector, one can easily browse online and post on message board for hours of the day. As a teacher? No way. Private sector, you can easily take a 90 minute lunch. Teachers? No way. Private sector allows leaving the office a few hours early to golf. Teaching? Nope. “Work” for salesman encompasses taking clients golfing, drinking, to businessman special day baseball games. Teachers? They’re still stuck doing actual work. Private sector? You can come in late, start the day off by “doing salescalls” before heading to the office (called sleeping in later). Teachers have no chance to do any of that.

Now, reality is that teachers could about 2 months more of vacation time than private sector. But for what they’re paid compared to an equal in terms of education and experience in the private sector, they aren’t compensated the same.

And for the health insurance/protesting . . . a key part is that these teacher unions have agreed to certain deals with the promise and assurance that benefits would be maintained at a reasonable cost. That promise has been tossed out the door.

Imagine if you were hired with the agreement that your commission would be tiered. Then, when you hit the certain tiered levels, they changed their mind and reneged on the promise by not increasing the commission, even though you took lower salary for years building up to that commission with the promise that it would pay off once you sell more.

You must habe missed the part where I stated my mother was a school teacher and so is my wife. I know they work extra hours and what their lunch time is.

I know teachers are often times not appreciated and they go the extra mile.

But there is also a lot of whining about pay when they know that going into it. There is also i went into teaching so I could get summers off as well. Some do it for the love and to help people. Some do it for benefits.

 

[i am herdman]

I’m saying most also. Most teachers could make it easily outside of teaching. Jesus I’d love to be able to trade you jobs for a week. I’ve been needing a vacation.

I would never make it as a teacher. I know that .

 

[GK4Herd]

The obvious difference is that there isn’t a choice on whether or not to pay taxes, but people do have a choice on how to support private industry. When my insurance went up, I didn’t have the taxpayers to fall back on.

And as rifle pointed out, the lack of teacher raises over the years were a promised trade off for maintaining benefit premium levels.

 

[big_country90]

And as rifle pointed out, the lack of teacher raises over the years were a promised trade off for maintaining benefit premium levels.

Democrats shouldn’t make promises they can’t keep, but we all know they do. And they especially have no business speaking for future administrations.

 

[GK4Herd]

But there is also a lot of whining about pay when they know that going into it. There is also i went into teaching so I could get summers off as well. Some do it for the love and to help people. Some do it for benefits.

I’m thinking I’m going to to call Webster and offer them this as the perfect sample of irony...herdman talking about someone elses whining. I mean...you do have clients call you when you’re pooping and all.


And you’re right...some made the decision to get into teaching for the benefits. Sucks for them I guess.

 

[GK4Herd]

Democrats shouldn’t make promises they can’t keep, but we all know they do. And they especially have no business speaking for future administrations.

The root of the problem is that healthcare is broke. That affects everyone, not just teachers.

 

[murox]

I’m thinking I’m going to to call Webster and offer them this as the perfect sample of irony...herdman talking about someone elses whining. I mean...you do have clients call you when you’re pooping and all.


And you’re right...some made the decision to get into teaching for the benefits. Sucks for them I guess.

Yeah, I guess now they'll have to fall back on their pension, 4 months vacation, mid-afternoon work stoppage, guaranteed employment while still maintaining better health insurance than everyone else in the country.

 

[murox]

The root of the problem is that healthcare is broke. That affects everyone, not just teachers.

Healthcare is broken. It's more broken with Obamacare as it threw gasoline onto the dumpster fire. The teachers unions supported Obamacare.

 

[GK4Herd]

Yeah, I guess now they'll have to fall back on their pension, 4 months vacation, mid-afternoon work stoppage, guaranteed employment while still maintaining better health insurance than everyone else in the country.

Four month vacation. Mid afternoon work stoppage? Really? Dang...sign me up.

 

[trailherd]

As the spouse of a public school teacher, I can see both sides of this. There are very few careers where she can earn well above the WV median income, have near total job security, be available to care for our children, and enjoy solid benefits all while doing something she is passionate about.

On the flip sode, the PEIA changes are odd in that they result in only nominal increases for most enrollees, but massive increases for a select group without any sensible reason. Having said this I also disagree with GK a bit. In his situation, I don't think PEIA should've made changes. However, it has always been true that the state subsidy was based on an employees ability to pay, which I think is reasonable (particularly with many state employees having very poor pay). I don't think it's unfair to require nonstate employees with an employee spouse to include their income in that calculation when they are covered by the employees plan. Their pay is directly related to the employees ability to pay the premium. The governor's latest proposal is reasonable.

I also get the desire to strike. The profession is a closed market regulated almost exclusively by the government. No market forces exist to determine a fair salary and teachers are forced to unionize to counteract the power of the government to set wages.

It's a tough balance.

 

[GK4Herd]

Healthcare is broken. It's more broken with Obamacare as it threw gasoline onto the dumpster fire. The teachers unions supported Obamacare.

I don’t disagree that Obamacare didn’t fix the issue. I’m sure I’m missing something here so educate me...why would the teachers union involve themselves in Obamacare support when the teachers have access to their own plan? You lost me on that one.

 

[big_country90]

I don’t disagree that Obamacare didn’t fix the issue. I’m sure I’m missing something here so educate me...why would the teachers union involve themselves in Obamacare support when the teachers have access to their own plan? You lost me on that one.

Because they are run by unions and are predominantly democrat.

 

[GK4Herd]

As the spouse of a public school teacher, I can see both sides of this. There are very few careers where she can earn well above the WV median income, have near total job security, be available to care for our children, and enjoy solid benefits all while doing something she is passionate about.

On the flip sode, the PEIA changes are odd in that they result in only nominal increases for most enrollees, but massive increases for a select group without any sensible reason. Having said this I also disagree with GK a bit. In his situation, I don't think PEIA should've made changes. However, it has always been true that the state subsidy was based on an employees ability to pay, which I think is reasonable (particularly with many state employees having very poor pay). I don't think it's unfair to require nonstate employees with an employee spouse to include their income in that calculation when they are covered by the employees plan. Their pay is directly related to the employees ability to pay the premium. The governor's latest proposal is reasonable.

I also get the desire to strike. The profession is a closed market regulated almost exclusively by the government. No market forces exist to determine a fair salary and teachers are forced to unionize to counteract the power of the government to set wages.

It's a tough balance.

Very reasonable response. I do disagree on the income thing though. Why should I receive less of a benefit than my peers because I have outside income? Premium should be based on the same factors that any other group health plan is based on...age, sec, etc. Income doesn’t determine my expense and risk to the health provider. In fact I’ll bet a higher income individual is LESS costly when assessing group risk. But I don’t care about that. Just charge me the same. And I’m still trying to research this, but I also believe my wife and I both will be assessed premium while only receiving a single benefit. If true I’m not sure I see the fairness in that.

 

[trailherd]

Very reasonable response. I do disagree on the income thing though. Why should I receive less of a benefit than my peers because I have outside income? Premium should be based on the same factors that any other group health plan is based on...age, sec, etc. Income doesn’t determine my expense and risk to the health provider. In fact I’ll bet a higher income individual is LESS costly when assessing group risk. But I don’t care about that. Just charge me the same. And I’m still trying to research this, but I also believe my wife and I both will be assessed premium while only receiving a single benefit. If true I’m not sure I see the fairness in that.

The governor's latest plan was that employee-employee spouse plan would be revived and based on employee income only and not include outside source income. I agree with that plan. I think your situation was the small group of folks that got really hosed. Everyone else saw only nominal change in cost (less than 0.5% for most).

While a normal insurance company might use actuarial results to set plan costs, PEIA is different because it doesn't just set the plan cost, but also the employer provided subsidy. It is common for employer provided subsidies to be income based, that's why I think that part of the PEIA plan is fair. It just makes things different when the plan provider is also the employer.

 

[GK4Herd]

The governor's latest plan was that employee-employee spouse plan would be revived and based on employee income only and not include outside source income. I agree with that plan. I think your situation was the small group of folks that got really hosed. Everyone else saw only nominal change in cost (less than 0.5% for most).

While a normal insurance company might use actuarial results to set plan costs, PEIA is different because it doesn't just set the plan cost, but also the employer provided subsidy. It is common for employer provided subsidies to be income based, that's why I think that part of the PEIA plan is fair. It just makes things different when the plan provider is also the employer.

Thanks for the information.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

But there is also a lot of whining about pay when they know that going into it. There is also i went into teaching so I could get summers off as well. Some do it for the love and to help people. Some do it for benefits.

Read my last paragraph prior to this post.

Democrats shouldn’t make promises they can’t keep, but we all know they do. And they especially have no business speaking for future administrations.

Should we start with "lock her up" being the first thing he was going to do or any of the other dozens of promises he broke?

 

[trailherd]

One final thing on the fairness of including the spouse's income when covered by an employees plan.

I know someone who is a teacher with a fairly well paid spouse who is also a state employee. Their employee-employee spouse family plan is $19 more per month than it would be if he didn't work for the state (because then his income wouldn't be included in determining premium). PEIA is trying to get rid of that inequity by requiring covered non-employees to likewise include their income. I think that's fair.

 

[big_country90]

Read my last paragraph prior to this post.



Should we start with "lock her up" being the first thing he was going to do or any of the other dozens of promises he broke?

I recall “lock her up” being a chant and not a campaign promise. But don’t worry...there’s still time.

 

[C.K. Ocsevol-Evad]

I recall “lock her up” being a chant and not a campaign promise. But don’t worry...there’s still time.

Clearly, you aren’t able to recall much. In one debate, he said that if he wins, he’s going to instruct his attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor to go after Hillary for her emails.

In another, he said that if he’s in charge, Hillary will be in jail.

At a rally, he said the first thing he will do on his first day is throw her in jail.

At another rally, he said Clinton “has to go to jail.”

I’m sure this shit is all on YouTube. Keep burying your head in the sand. At least three of his four main promises have been fantasy.

 

[raleighherdfan]

Clearly, you aren’t able to recall much. In one debate, he said that if he wins, he’s going to instruct his attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor to go after Hillary for her emails.

In another, he said that if he’s in charge, Hillary will be in jail.

At a rally, he said the first thing he will do on his first day is throw her in jail.

At another rally, he said Clinton “has to go to jail.”

I’m sure this shit is all on YouTube. Keep burying your head in the sand. At least three of his four main promises have been fantasy.

Actually sticking with the premise of this discussion I remember a President promising lower healthcare insurance premiums too if his Obummercare was made law. (Of course you probably don’t remember that either).

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

There is eveb more inequality for those of us who homeschool and don't use any of the public school services, yet still have to subsidize all of the teachers.

 

[extragreen]

I think it's a pity also that you have to subsidize the military while the rest of us enjoy their protection.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

I served in the military draft dodger.

 

[extragreen]

I served in the military draft dodger.

Irrelevant, whiner. Why should you have to subsidize everyone else's freedom?

 

[countryroads89]

Democrats shouldn’t make promises they can’t keep, but we all know they do. And they especially have no business speaking for future administrations.

Yeah, except Republicans hold the governor’s seat and control the state legislature.

 

[big_country90]

Yeah, except Republicans hold the governor’s seat and control the state legislature.

Follow along. We were talking about past legislatures (all democrat controlled) making promises to teachers that they couldn't keep.

 

[mlblack16.]

I think it's a pity also that you have to subsidize the military while the rest of us enjoy their protection.

I think it's a pity someone who has never put others ahead of himself, let alone served in the military, can be so opinionated and act like he knows all about it.

 

[countryroads89]

Follow along. We were talking about past legislatures (all democrat controlled) making promises to teachers that they couldn't keep.

Yeah, and the CURRENT legislature is the one screwing the teachers. Yell at the sky all you want about the state legislature 30 years ago; it's irrelevant.

 

[big_country90]

Yeah, and the CURRENT legislature is the one screwing the teachers. Yell at the sky all you want about the state legislature 30 years ago; it's irrelevant.

I’m not the one making the argument about legislatures 30 years ago. Go back and read the thread. Rifle and others were arguing that because of promises made by past administrations, that everyone agreed wages would remain constant as long as insurance premiums didn’t rise. I simply said they had no business making promises they can’t keep or speaking for future administrations. This legislature isn’t screwing anybody, but rather attempting to fix a problem that they didn’t create.