What is it about Marshall?
- Thread starter BleedsGreen33
- Start date
Makes me scratch my head as to how look so good in bowls, but can't win CUSA and lays and egg or two every year in the regular season. Hard to believe as to why they can't win or even get to the championship of CUSA.
It's important to look at the bowl match ups:
2018: Marshall (3rd in C-USA) vs. USF (8th in American, 6 straight losses to finish the year)
2017: Marshall (6th in C-USA) vs. Colorado State (5th in Mountain West)
2015: Marshall (4th in C-USA) vs. UConn (7th in American)
2014: Marshall (1st in C-USA) vs. NIU (1st in MAC)
2013: Marshall (2nd in C-USA) vs. Maryland (11th in ACC)
2011: Marshall (4th in C-USA) vs. FIU (4th in Sun Belt)
Out of six of the bowl games, only one was with Marshall worse in their conference than the bowl opponent in their conference. Like tonight's opponent, half of Marshall's bowls during Doc's tenure were played against teams far inferior in their own conference than Marshall was in their own that year.
3 vs. 8
4 vs. 7
2 vs. 11
The same thing was true for Pruett's bowl wins:
2002: Marshall (1st in MAC) vs. Louisville (3rd in C-USA)
2001: Marshall (2nd in MAC) vs. ECU (4th in C-USA)
2000: Marshall (1st in MAC) vs. Cincinnati (3rd in C-USA)
1999: Marshall (1st in MAC) vs. BYU (2nd in Mountain West)
1998: Marshall (1st in MAC) vs. Louisville (3rd in C-USA)
Pruett and Doc combined to win 11 bowls. In only one of those bowls did Marshall do better in their conference than the bowl opponent did in their own conference.
2018: Marshall (3rd in C-USA) vs. USF (8th in American, 6 straight losses to finish the year)
2017: Marshall (6th in C-USA) vs. Colorado State (5th in Mountain West)
2015: Marshall (4th in C-USA) vs. UConn (7th in American)
2014: Marshall (1st in C-USA) vs. NIU (1st in MAC)
2013: Marshall (2nd in C-USA) vs. Maryland (11th in ACC)
2011: Marshall (4th in C-USA) vs. FIU (4th in Sun Belt)
Out of six of the bowl games, only one was with Marshall worse in their conference than the bowl opponent in their conference. Like tonight's opponent, half of Marshall's bowls during Doc's tenure were played against teams far inferior in their own conference than Marshall was in their own that year.
3 vs. 8
4 vs. 7
2 vs. 11
The same thing was true for Pruett's bowl wins:
2002: Marshall (1st in MAC) vs. Louisville (3rd in C-USA)
2001: Marshall (2nd in MAC) vs. ECU (4th in C-USA)
2000: Marshall (1st in MAC) vs. Cincinnati (3rd in C-USA)
1999: Marshall (1st in MAC) vs. BYU (2nd in Mountain West)
1998: Marshall (1st in MAC) vs. Louisville (3rd in C-USA)
Pruett and Doc combined to win 11 bowls. In only one of those bowls did Marshall do better in their conference than the bowl opponent did in their own conference.
Doc is more open in bowl games. We ran two "trick" plays tonight versus zero in our 12 regular season games. Those two plays aren't the difference, but indicative of the difference in mentality. It was just a more aggressive style tonight.
Like the UConn game a few years ago where we used Birdsong in short yardage, we never do that different stuff during the regular season.
Like the UConn game a few years ago where we used Birdsong in short yardage, we never do that different stuff during the regular season.
Colorado State finished 1-4 last year, had a Sagarin ranking of #84, and played without their best defensive player all first half due to a suspension.
Maryland was the 11th place ACC team, finished 2-5 on the season, and played without a number of starters including their top two receivers.
Those schools have good names, but they weren't exactly strong teams under the circumstances.
Yep, context in bowl games is a must.
Motivation is a big one, too. USF looked disinterested last night. Outside of talking trash to Marshall players I saw very little emotion from them.
That said, we beat them in their home stadium and Blake Barnett played most of the game. All in all it was a nice win.
Who cares about “who” we have to play. We can only play who we are given. Our guys come into bowls looking ready to play. I get tired of the whole “disinterested” excuses teams make. If you can’t get your team ready to play then don’t go.
Sure we have played some lesser teams in a conference but we came out and did what was needed. Last night no exception.
We do better off of the lay off for a bowl than we do bye weeks. Crazy. Maybe we need to treat games after bye weeks like a bowl game.
Sure we have played some lesser teams in a conference but we came out and did what was needed. Last night no exception.
We do better off of the lay off for a bowl than we do bye weeks. Crazy. Maybe we need to treat games after bye weeks like a bowl game.
Yes, context is important. But I can't remember the last time we came out flat in a bowl game (actually, I can. Cincinnati in 2004). For whatever reason, our program seems to value these bowl games more than our opponent. Likewise, our opponents usually aren't getting up to play a CUSA/MAC school.
But at the same time, to hell with that kind of talk. I'll take wins where I can get them. Things usually don't work in our favor that way. I don't want to take a decent selling point our program has for granted.
The good thing is we won. But, last night you also shake your head going how does this team not win the conference or at least the division?
Above you see football anhedonia in full song.
The Herd won. Dominated. THE AMERICAN!!!!!!! Before an THE AMERICAN!!!!! sized crowd. The seniors went out winners.
If you do not suffer from football anhedonia, you have nothing negative to say. If you do, you should not have watched in the first place.
GO HERD.
The Herd won. Dominated. THE AMERICAN!!!!!!! Before an THE AMERICAN!!!!! sized crowd. The seniors went out winners.
If you do not suffer from football anhedonia, you have nothing negative to say. If you do, you should not have watched in the first place.
GO HERD.
Last night's game was actually the only one I saw the Herd play all year.
My thoughts:
1. Don't believe everything you read on message boards.
2. Marshall showed up to win, while USF had maybe four or five players that seemed to be fired up about the game - those would be the tailback, #84, the linebacker (#4 I believe) and the big kid that played multiple positions (#8 I think).
3. Herd running backs ran hard, and with lots of heart. Great effort on their part.
4. Young QB seemed much better than what I had been led to believe. Although he made some mistakes, I believe he'll end up being a pretty good quarterback for the Herd.
5. OC called a helluva game, and took advantage of the USF weaknesses in their defense. Additionally, they didn't take the gas off the pedal in the 2nd half, and mixed it up really good, by being able to run the ball, as well as pass it to continue moving the chains, and eating up the clock. Again, based on what I've read on this forum, I was afraid the Herd would have gone very conservative, and was anticipating USF getting back into the game to challenge for a win in the 4th quarter.
6. Herd lines on both sides of the ball dominated, and the game ball should have gone to the offensive line.
7. How the hell did this team not win C-USA?
8. Lastly, @The Real SamC , will the Herd be invited to the American?
My thoughts:
1. Don't believe everything you read on message boards.
2. Marshall showed up to win, while USF had maybe four or five players that seemed to be fired up about the game - those would be the tailback, #84, the linebacker (#4 I believe) and the big kid that played multiple positions (#8 I think).
3. Herd running backs ran hard, and with lots of heart. Great effort on their part.
4. Young QB seemed much better than what I had been led to believe. Although he made some mistakes, I believe he'll end up being a pretty good quarterback for the Herd.
5. OC called a helluva game, and took advantage of the USF weaknesses in their defense. Additionally, they didn't take the gas off the pedal in the 2nd half, and mixed it up really good, by being able to run the ball, as well as pass it to continue moving the chains, and eating up the clock. Again, based on what I've read on this forum, I was afraid the Herd would have gone very conservative, and was anticipating USF getting back into the game to challenge for a win in the 4th quarter.
6. Herd lines on both sides of the ball dominated, and the game ball should have gone to the offensive line.
7. How the hell did this team not win C-USA?
8. Lastly, @The Real SamC , will the Herd be invited to the American?
Doc always seems to have his teams very well prepared for bowl games. I get frustrated, because he (Doc) shows his potential in bowl games, but then doesn't perform the same throughout the year. I know there are a lot of different factors involved, primarily the length of time he and his staff have to prepare for the opponent, but the guys also always appear motivated and just ready to play their hearts out.
I know our bowl opponents through the years have typically been matchups against teams ranked lower than us in their respective conferences, but we are talking about CUSA, and we weren't even in the championship game this year. We are in one of the worst (often the worst) conferences in Div I-A, so comparing our rank in CUSA to a team in a better conference isn't always a good way to compare. I would think USF would beat most of the teams in our conference and definitely wouldn't finish 8th.
I know our bowl opponents through the years have typically been matchups against teams ranked lower than us in their respective conferences, but we are talking about CUSA, and we weren't even in the championship game this year. We are in one of the worst (often the worst) conferences in Div I-A, so comparing our rank in CUSA to a team in a better conference isn't always a good way to compare. I would think USF would beat most of the teams in our conference and definitely wouldn't finish 8th.
Good thing the measure of a team is only how many yards its offense puts up.
We are discussing the overall quality and strength of a team. Your point is meaningless in this discussion. FAU had a top 20 offense this year and finished 5-7 in the worst conference in the country. Is beating them noteworthy?
A team that finished in 8th place in The American, played without its OC, and lost its last 6 games.
Agreed, they wouldn’t finish 8th. Let’s say they would finish between 5th-7th.
Congratulations on the big win over Louisiana Tech, Charlotte, or Southern Miss?
The discussion is about Marshall allegedly playing better in bowl games than the regular season. My argument is that these bowl games are against teams that may have a decent name, but in reality, had average seasons.
If we can agree that USF would have finished 5th - 7th in the conference, would we be claiming beating a Louisiana Tech, Charlotte, or Southern Miss was surprising or some sort of big win? No, it’s expected.
You have to go back to the past, Early in Nehlen's tenure at WVU he always put in new and different stuff. It was mostly running the QB more. Doc gives new looks that makes them coach on the fly.
The problem is that your argument is full of flaws. Yes, it's true that the teams the Herd goes up against are average teams that had average seasons. Afterall, that's why those teams are playing in bowls with weird names. The point of the thread was to simply point out that Marshall seems to perform better against average teams in bowl games that it does agains average teams during the regular season. I think any logical person without a pre-imposed position of angst against the program, could easily acknowlege that Marshall has performed at a higher level during bowl games. I mean, they have won seven straight bowl games, and without looking it up, I'm guessing they covered the spread in most of those wins. Why do you hate your alma mater?
It’s much easier to show up for one game than it is an 8 or 9 game conference slate.
Holliday does not prepare his team consistently enough to win championships at the conference level.
Holliday does not prepare his team consistently enough to win championships at the conference level.
Most of your questions can be answered with this line.
But I'll help you out....
Some of the complaints this year has been right on.
He had a very good game. But between being hurt and being, somewhat; inconsistent this year, he had a nice game. Then again most RS freshman are inconsistent. I'm just not sold he is the future, but he has potential.
It hasn't been dominant all year. You answered this with #5, USF defense is not that good.
Inconsistency and in inability of Doc to prepare teams week to week.
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Yep, all the naysayers want to point out that CUSA absolutely sucks, but when we beat teams from these conferences you have to consider where the team placed within the better conference. This is how the naysayers fulfill their narrative. Always moving the goal posts. One favorite narrative is that the MAC is superior to CUSA. When The Herd beat NIU in a bowl game it was because NIU had a down year. The naysayers will not cease. They are truly dedicated.
Uhh, which part of "FAU" that I typed was too difficult for you to understand? My comment said "FAU," not "CSU." Those are two different schools in two different states in two different conferences.
Your argument was that somehow CSU having a top 20 offense made them a good team, so beating them was noteworthy. My argument was that simply looking at a team's offense to judge the quality of the team is absurd, and I showed that by using FAU as an example of a top 20 offense on an average team in the worst conference as proof of that.
Yet you were only able to present one to argue about? "Full of flaws" denotes far more than one.
No, that wasn't the point of the thread. I was the one who pointed out that these bowl opponents were almost always average teams.
Herdman, in the second post in this thread, said he couldn't understand why Marshall looked good in the bowl games but couldn't win C-USA. Well, to win C-USA, you'll have to beat some good teams. To win these bowl games, you have to win against just an average team (almost always). Marshall doesn't have a problem beating average teams. It has a problem beating those good teams that win C-USA. If Marshall had an issue beating average teams, it would finish near the bottom (or at least the bottom half) of C-USA. It doesn't. It almost always is in the top half of C-USA because it can beat the average teams, just like it does in bowls, but it doesn't fare well against good teams (even by C-USA "good" standards).
But let's look at how Marshall did against average teams in the bowl years to prove my point:
2009: The only average teams they played were 5-7 UAB and 7-5 Southern Miss. The other teams were either good (VA Tech, wvu, ECU, UCF) or bad.
2011: Average opponents: Louisville, ECU.
2013: Average opponents: Ohio, UTSA, FAU.
2014: Average opponents: Ohio, Akron, ODU, MTSU, UAB
2015: Average opponent: ODU, MTSU, FIU
2017: Average opponents: Miami, ODU, MTSU, WKU, UTSA
2018: Average opponents: VA Tech, Miami, FAU, Southern Miss, Charlotte
Against those average opponents, Marshall has gone 20-5. Clearly, Marshall doesn't have an issue winning the overwhelming majority of games against average teams, hence them being successful when they play average teams in bowls. Their issue is beating those good teams; teams that finish in the top 3-4 in the conference.
Are you sure that is the word you wanted to go with? It doesn't really make sense. Did you mean "predisposed"?
Well, yeah. The fact that C-USA was the worst conference in the country doesn't alleviate the importance to look at the quality of a team from another conference. Is beating Georgia State a good win simply because they played in a better conference this year? Of course not. You have to look at them overall. Is beating Appalachian State a good win since they played in a better conference? No, beating them is a good win because they are a good team that won a better conference. Is beating an 8th place USF team who lost 6 straight games to finish the year a good win simply because they are from a better conference? Of course not.
What the hell are you talking about? When did ANYONE on this board ever say that the 2014, 11-3 NIU team was a down year for them?
How desperate does one's argument have to get to completely fabricate shit?
I see your point and agree with most of your logic, but USF would finish higher than 5th - 7th. Who would they lose to? Their starting QB was out for how many games? Don't you think their record in the AAC would have been even better, yet you would still place them 5th - 7th in CUSA?
The main point from @BleedsGreen33 was that we are beating at least someone, anyone, in bowl games, and our performance in these bowl games is typically far better than any other game throughout the regular season. We can't get up for teams like Old Dominion half the time with Doc.
Yehhh hawww, last night was good.
Congrats on the 2nd place in division trophy
Also, USF sucked. Their season tanked lost 6 straight to end season. Glad we kicked the shit out of them.
There you have it and that is the truth.
That's the issue right there. We can show up in one game with 3 weeks to get ready. Week in and week out where conference coaches know you? Not so much.
That's why we are an underachieving program. We are the Texas Longhorns or CUSA East Division. We are the Mark Richt ear Georgia Bulldogs Team of CUSA.
Sagarin, before last night's game, had USF behind UAB, North Texas, Marshall, and MTSU which places them 5th. Sagarin also had USF less than a point better than FAU and two points better than FIU, which means depending on who the home team was, USF could be the underdog against both of those teams.
Losing last night will drop USF more in Sagarin's ratings.
For who they would lose to? Remember, this is a team that lost its last six games. All six of those losses were by double digits.
What's crazy? They easily could have lost their last eight games. Their last win was a 1 possession win against 1-11 UConn. Their next to last win was a 1 point, last second field goal against a bad Tulsa team in which they were down by 14 in the 4th and had a 32 yard completion with 10 seconds left that put them in field goal range.
I’d say we came out pretty flat vs. ECU. Down 38-8 at the half... lol. But yep, Cincy in 2004 also.
Football anhedonia. Our conference "sucks" and then the non-conference (from the lauded by football know nothings THE AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) "sucks" and blah, blah, blah.
Obviously MU sports, short of winning every game every year, something that only happens in pro wrestling and the movies, is nothing. so you need to move on. WWE would be perfect for you. The "good guy" always wins. Perfect for delusionals and little kids.
I have two buddies who coach there. They haven't heard many rumblings yet, but if they come out slow next year, it could get really hot fast.
I think Strong, along with Taggart, is one of the most overrated coaches in college. He was average for two years at Louisville until he was able to ride on the shoulders of a freak QB. At Texas, he was very bad considering what they had. He had a great first year at USF, but again, that was when he had a do-everything QB that could help hide all of their deficiencies. Unless he finds another one of those, I expect the same record out of him.
Well, yeah, C-USA sucked this year. It was the worst conference in the country. Hell, an FCS conference was better.
And The American doesn't suck. It is an average FBS conference. USF? It was the 8th best team in an average conference. That doesn't make for a good team, but rather, an average team.
Being buddies with a head coach gets you a job. Being buddies with a coordinator, sometimes, can help you get a job. Being buddies with position coaches rarely gets you a job.
I'm not desperate for a job. I've had plenty of opportunities over the last few couple of months.
Agreed!
You have an agreement error. The noun "couple" is countable, so probably you should use, "few couples". Besides the phrase "few couple of months" confuses the reader, just not appropriate English phrase. As well, instead of using "I've had", you probably should have used "I had".
Have a nice Christmas Yagi!
Moron, what you’re pointing out isn’t an agreement error. Once again, you say things that you have no idea in which you’re talking about.
The “few couple of months” was just supposed to read “couple.” I intended to delete “few” to only use “couple” as it is more accurate. Regardless, it isn’t an agreement error as you tried claiming. Agreement errors in grammar are entirely different than that.
No. “I’ve had” is entirely correct grammatically. There is nothing wrong with it.
Why do you continue to attempt to correct somebody on things who is far more intelligent than you on the subject (and just about every other subject)?
Really, look either yesterday or today at your posts. You once again used “your” instead of “you’re.” Almost all of your posts contain major grammatical errors, yet you think you have the ability to correct me on errors?
In this last post of yours, you should have put the end quotation marks outside of the periods. You also should have used a comma before “Yags.” Didn’t we just go over that when you previously tried correcting me in another instance where it backfired, monumentally, against you?
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