WV...

[Herdstruck]

I think one thing that is missed is the socio-demographics in the other areas.

I came from Northern VA...to give you an idea of how they view education up there...my elementary and middle school competed nationally with high schools in Mythology Exams, Wordmasters (Analogies), Geography, among others...

I went to a Catholic HS...and the kids there were ultra competitive for the best colleges out there. One girl was crying because she had to SETTLE for Boston College since she didn't get into Notre Dame.
Of course, that's Northern VA...the idea is education is key.

But moving out of the state of WV (recall I spent lots of posts talking about coal mining being the dominant employer for several people, however it not requiring much of an education to do) especially in surrounding states like ohio, VA, NC, SC, etc., you'll have a much better shot at your kids being surrounded by others who want to succeed.

I've been to Midland and saw their hallway for their Valedictorians...impressive. You have Pittsburgh, Navy, Georgetown, UVA, Vanderbilt, etc...but those types aren't as abundant in WV as they are in other states.

In short, I am saying the culture around here doesn't emphasize education as a necessity to get by in life, while other states embrace it and enforce education...and thus, the kids and parents, are more supportive of education...and a better place to raise children.


On that note...I think if Coal ever stopped, it'd be a good thing for the state BECAUSE...of the fact that so many people are NOT educated, and thus, misinformed on political issues.
Imagine if 85% of the coal miners actually held some sort of bachelor's degree...doesn't even have to relate to their field, just ANYTHING that involved them having to think for a second...you'd have WV legislators sweating bullets when speaking because they'd have to tell the truth since the populace would know how to think, not allow themselves to be taken advantage of, and actually knowledgeably take actions against corruption.
Such exposure in higher education, gives people the ability to learn of such things, speaking practice, and overall better development when looking at the world.

I know college isn't for everyone, some won't do well, others will really prevail. But the point is, those who don't believe they'll do well, just toss out their chances to succeed...for the instant cash only to have it hurt them later on because they didn't know to read the fine print.

 

[HFF-SLTX]

This is a very interesting thread. Personally, I think Banker is pretty much dead on in his assessments. There are some other very good and interesting points. A few of my own assessments on the future of WV:

1. Coal - historically, the majority of the money has left the state. The status of the future of coal is not good, at least for growth purposes. However, one bright possibility in all of this is that opportunities in the future in this sector will likely come from smaller, more local companies that could lead to more $$ per ton mined staying in WV. Overall, large scale investment in coal is at least a decade away.

2. Transportation/Warehousing - I believe this could be one of the larger areas of growth for the state. WV is located smack in the middle of everything on the Eastern half of the US. St. Louis is the gateway to the west. Huntington should be the storage point for the SE, NE, and Midwest. Affordable labor, accessible transportation, and relatively cheap land should attract more of these types of companies. These are the blue collar jobs the state could have.

3. Have to hit on later.............losing precious time from work!!!

 

[elginherd]

Originally posted by Herdstruck:
I think one thing that is missed is the socio-demographics in the other areas.

I came from Northern VA...to give you an idea of how they view education up there...my elementary and middle school competed nationally with high schools in Mythology Exams, Wordmasters (Analogies), Geography, among others...

I went to a Catholic HS...and the kids there were ultra competitive for the best colleges out there. One girl was crying because she had to SETTLE for Boston College since she didn't get into Notre Dame.
Of course, that's Northern VA...the idea is education is key.

But moving out of the state of WV (recall I spent lots of posts talking about coal mining being the dominant employer for several people, however it not requiring much of an education to do) especially in surrounding states like ohio, VA, NC, SC, etc., you'll have a much better shot at your kids being surrounded by others who want to succeed.

I've been to Midland and saw their hallway for their Valedictorians...impressive. You have Pittsburgh, Navy, Georgetown, UVA, Vanderbilt, etc...but those types aren't as abundant in WV as they are in other states.

In short, I am saying the culture around here doesn't emphasize education as a necessity to get by in life, while other states embrace it and enforce education...and thus, the kids and parents, are more supportive of education...and a better place to raise children.

Your post makes excellent points, especially what I highlighted. I was fortunate to teach in STEM programs at two excellent HS's...and one BIG difference is the attitude that the students had absorbed from their parents about the importance of education. Just moving the students into a situation where there is peer-pressure to do school work makes a big difference...more so than the quality of the teachers themselves.

 

[Gold-n-Blue]

It isn't impossible to turn around WVa. Hell, it wasn't THAT long ago that North Carolina was considered a very backwards state.

The thing that frustrates me is, where I work we are doing some major hiring. Mostly accountants but also some IT developers, System Analyst, etc... We had to outsource our DBA's because we couldn't hire enough qualified people. Oracle DBA's make good money, here would be $75-$100k a year. We can hire a decent amount of accountants because even small offices have accountants and we have a good pool to pick from. And a straight out of college entry level accountant here will make $50k a year.

But man, when we try and hire IT developers it is tough. The market is good in Columbus and we have to compete with them. We had a develper leave for a $110k a year Web Development position up there. We offer about $75k a year to start and that moves into the $80k range pretty quickly. So which comes first? Companies hiring these good paying jobs, or the talent pool? Kids out of WVU will move to Pittsburgh/Columbus/etc... for some good coin.

 

[Clarkbar225]

Originally posted by Penn2moss:
You are wrong Clark.

If he moves to Nc, Va, or Mich, his kids can attend one of the top 3 public schools in America for college.

Here all they have is Marshall.

What is your point? His kids can attend those schools even if he moved to Guam .. colleges don't exclude who they admit based on where they currently live.

 

[elginherd]

Originally posted by Clarkbar225:

Originally posted by Penn2moss:
You are wrong Clark.

If he moves to Nc, Va, or Mich, his kids can attend one of the top 3 public schools in America for college.

Here all they have is Marshall.

What is your point? His kids can attend those schools even if he moved to Guam .. colleges don't exclude who they admit based on where they currently live.

True to a certain extent. However, in-state students pay much less inn most cases AND some schools do show preference toward admitting in-state students.

 

[Penn2moss]

Originally posted by Clarkbar225:

Originally posted by Penn2moss:
You are wrong Clark.

If he moves to Nc, Va, or Mich, his kids can attend one of the top 3 public schools in America for college.

Here all they have is Marshall.

What is your point? His kids can attend those schools even if he moved to Guam .. colleges don't exclude who they admit based on where they currently live.

They absolutely do. Publicly funded schools are usually required to preferentially accept in state students. In fact Virginia was in talks recently of capping out of state students to 25% of the student body.

I know people who got accepted to Duke and not UNC because UNC has such a huge preference towards in state students.

For Marshall's med school, the standards for in state students is a step below the standards for out of state students.

 

[elginherd]

For the most part, this (as a previous poster pointed out) has been one of the more interesting threads on HN in a while. Some, including me, have taken it to somewhat of a flaming contest...which is not productive.

Concentrating on MU & H-ton, engineering and high tech (bio-tech at MU) programs have catalyzed start-up businesses in other locales. To me the key in helping H-ton is finding ways to recruit young grads to stick around & to nurture & encourage forming new business concerns. Tax breaks are not the only answer; they may not be the answer at all. (Silicon Valley & Massachusetts are high tax BUT high value-added high-tech employment.)

The REAL question is, what do the bright young people need/want to stick around the Tri-State? As others have pointed out, much of the rest of the state is lost...and their loyalties are to USPAM anyway.


This post was edited on 3/2 8:44 PM by elginherd

 

[The Real SamC]

All of this "colonialism" ho-ha is just so much trying to blame others for WV's failure. If government taxed away 10 times as much for the coal (timber, gas, whatever) job producers, government would have wasted 10 times as much.

Because government is the problem.

- Who built the state's first medical school 7 miles from the state border, 200 miles from the (then) center of population and 70 miles from the existing Pitt world class medical center? Rather than in a central city like Charleston or Huntington, like so many states did, and thus insuring that the state, WVU's medical school having failed, must maintain a convoluted deal with 3 schools at 7 locations, and sending, 70 years on, WVians still out-of-state (Cleveland, UVa, Duke, Pitt, OSU, UK) for world class health care? A.T. Masey?

- Who has spent, over 4 generations, 72% of the state's higher ed money on one school, which educates 15% of the state's college students. That money used to allow out-of-state students to attend at a lower rate than their state's schools? Don Blankenship?

- Who built the interstates in almost exactly the wrong order, with the busiest finished two decades after the least busy? And is now building a ridiculous 4 lane from Man (nowhere) to Logan (nowhere) and six-laneing 79 in Holeland, while 35 remains a death road and 64 being six-laned is "unfunded"? Arch Coal?

- Who designed a politically driven and totally corrupt lower ed system that, despite being above average in per capita funding, is last in the country in producing quality students? Students that are unprepared for college? Paul Blazer?

- Who continues to burden the H-C area with two joke airports, rather than on regional one that works? I.T. Mann?

- Who created "tort hell", with Mandolitis (deliberate intent), bankrupted worker's comp, and so far from the norm that people who could not find WV on the map file suits in Wheeling to get their unearned $$ ? U.S. Steel?

- Who signed on to foolish welfare programs that make work optional for the lazy, and crush the finances of the useful? Arch Coal?

- And who keeps WV as a mandatory union state, while 25 states, representing 60% of the population, and 80% of the job growth, have joined the modern system of guaranteeing everyone's God given Right To Work? DuPont?

The problem is government. It remains, despite last November's one-time favorable result, government.

 

[elginherd]

SamC,

WV's state gov't is A problem, but not ALL the problems. If you do some reading about Appalachia, Raoul's points about colonialism are rooted in historical fact. Your points about the aptly renamed USPAM are very valid, however. As you pointed out, MU services the one region of the state where the topography is 'normal'.

 

[huntersdl2007]

I am old enough to be wiser yet young enough to stil know what most young people want - what attracts and retains them in a locale. Keep in mind the first thing a grad wants is 1)opportunity and 2) $$$$ cash money homey. Even if a business in WV can pay the samne as say a business in Charlotte then you have to be honest with yourself - what does WV offer that is more / better than the the other area. Outside the area being familiar and probably having family around - what else is there? I would love for folks to compile a list. Marshall games check. Family check. Actually enjoys living there - possibly check although probably in the minority. Revitalization is KEY - and having things for young people to do. There is a reason a large population moves to Charlotte - but it isnt for everyone. Some hate the traffic. I personally love it and never looked back although i would love to get to more marshall games. OPPORTUNITY - there isnt nearly as much in WV. Apples to apples comparison. I would have nowhere near the opportunity in WV that i do here. Matter of fact I could probably leave NC and go be a CFO of a major corporation but i wouldnt want to. There's nothing there that attracts me and i am just being honest. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your State and where you came from but it's all in what floats your boat. If you want more opportunity it is elsewhere - it is what it is. I wouldnt mind owning a mountain cabin or retiring in WV but living the productive life isnt for me and isnt for many folks.

 

[elginherd]

Excellent post Hunter.

I'm rounding the last turn toward the finish line in my working life. We settled in the Columbia SC area for 30 years. Only reason we're returning to the tri-state is to be near my wife's sisters.

For MU to be healthy, H-ton needs to be healthy. and H-ton cannot be healthy if at least some young, well educated people stick around. Me moving back really doesn't add to the health of the city.

 

[Herdstruck]

I agree...BUT...

WV's government became this way due to the uneducated people voting them in. To get any political power all you have to spew is "COAL! I love it!"
Then you're voted in...it's due to the one-sided nature of the people in WV.

If WVians were better educated, they'd realize there's more to politricks than just coal...there's a whole slew of things. I think, after 100 years of the same crap, they are realizing it...but it's hurting them to admit they've been betrayed by the one thing they fought so hard to keep.
Elected politicians want to fulfill their own agendas and can do that much easier by slightly swaying out of their way to satisfy the people...problem is, WVians are much easier to fool than real educated states.

To say government is the cause of this, you're right, but it starts with the people who put them there...and who kept believing the things that were said rather than going off on their own and finding out any sort of better solutions...it's too bad coal was a major blinder for the state or else things might've been different 50 years ago.

 

[TIREPUNK]

Originally posted by The Real SamC:

All of this "colonialism" ho-ha is just so much trying to blame others for WV's failure. If government taxed away 10 times as much for the coal (timber, gas, whatever) job producers, government would have wasted 10 times as much.

Because government is the problem.

- Who built the state's first medical school 7 miles from the state border, 200 miles from the (then) center of population and 70 miles from the existing Pitt world class medical center? Rather than in a central city like Charleston or Huntington, like so many states did, and thus insuring that the state, WVU's medical school having failed, must maintain a convoluted deal with 3 schools at 7 locations, and sending, 70 years on, WVians still out-of-state (Cleveland, UVa, Duke, Pitt, OSU, UK) for world class health care? A.T. Masey?

- Who has spent, over 4 generations, 72% of the state's higher ed money on one school, which educates 15% of the state's college students. That money used to allow out-of-state students to attend at a lower rate than their state's schools? Don Blankenship?

- Who built the interstates in almost exactly the wrong order, with the busiest finished two decades after the least busy? And is now building a ridiculous 4 lane from Man (nowhere) to Logan (nowhere) and six-laneing 79 in Holeland, while 35 remains a death road and 64 being six-laned is "unfunded"? Arch Coal?

- Who designed a politically driven and totally corrupt lower ed system that, despite being above average in per capita funding, is last in the country in producing quality students? Students that are unprepared for college? Paul Blazer?

- Who continues to burden the H-C area with two joke airports, rather than on regional one that works? I.T. Mann?

- Who created "tort hell", with Mandolitis (deliberate intent), bankrupted worker's comp, and so far from the norm that people who could not find WV on the map file suits in Wheeling to get their unearned $$ ? U.S. Steel?

- Who signed on to foolish welfare programs that make work optional for the lazy, and crush the finances of the useful? Arch Coal?

- And who keeps WV as a mandatory union state, while 25 states, representing 60% of the population, and 80% of the job growth, have joined the modern system of guaranteeing everyone's God given Right To Work? DuPont?

The problem is government. It remains, despite last November's one-time favorable result, government.

While I agree with almost everything you have said ITT I must remind you that locating WVU in Northern WV seems profetic sincw the southern/central section of WV has turned to shit. Only part besides EP that is showing any life is the Clarksburg to Morgantown corridor. Also, Huntington is closer to another state than Morgantown is (7 miles vs 700 feet)...just say'n.

 

[oldeherd]

Yes, tirepunk, and one of the reasons for the growth between Clarksburg-Morgantown is that the state has put a hell of a lot of resources into that area ($$$$$) while ignoring many other areas of the state. For example, it is a fact that about 70-80 per cent of the higher ed capital dollars are spent in Morgantown, leaving a greatly inadequate amount of capital dollars for Marshall and the other state colleges and universities combined. Right now, Marshall has an approved capital plan approved by the Higher Ed Policy Commission calling for about 450 million in capital improvements, new medical, classroom/research, dorm and athletic facilities in next 10 years. Yet, we'll see how much of these dollars will be allocated by the pro WVU politicians in Charleston.

Also, as SamC points out, we'll see how much of I-64 from the KY line to Putnam County will be upgraded in next decade or so. When originally announced, I-64 was suppose to be upgraded to 6 lanes from KY line to Charleston by the 2020s. I'll bet it will be done from Charleston to Cabell County line and I-79 will be upgraded throughout Marion, Harrison and Mon counties before the Cabell county portion is completed.

Finally, it was the State legislature and a lot of crooked Kanawha/Charleston business interests who directed the routing of 3 interstates through Charleston. Better plan for rest of southern WV and Cabell County would have been upgrading of route 60 to 4 lanes between Huntington Charleston and routing I-64 from Cabell County down into the coalfields across to Beckley-Virginia line, opening up many of these coalfield counties for other economic development when the mining activity waned there.