Is Nato and the EU going to force Ukraine to surrender?

[Chevy1]

I already did and provided a quote. I really don't understand the significance of that and why it is so important to you.

Good grief...you said I was wrong that the US was the only one saying the attack would definitely happen. I merely ask you to prove otherwise. I have no problem accepting your point if you can provide something that points to anything other than US Intel. In fact, I will applaud your efforts.

Russia has surrounded Ukraine on three sides. Here's where an invasion could be launched | CNN

Russia has amassed more than 130,000 troops near Ukraine's border in recent weeks, according to US estimates, raising fears from Western and Ukrainian intelligence officials that an invasion could be imminent.

www.cnn.com

LOL...You never tire of providing irrelevant links. I guess you have time to kill.

Having "Fears" isn't the same as saying it's going to happen.

 

[KyMUfan]

Interesting article from January 2022 from an Australian perspective.

2022 is not 2014: What holds back Russia from Ukraine | Lowy Institute

Russia’s leadership is alert to the changed military circumstances even while it clings to historic ambitions.

www.lowyinstitute.org

The US had provided weapons and training to Ukraine following the Crimea invasion, likely not enough but there were many factors why. This is a very interesting section of the article.

"Back in 2014, Russia had a better chance to invade and occupy more of Ukraine beyond Crimea and parts of Donetsk and Lugansk regions. Then, the Ukrainian military had almost no effective fighting capacity: under trained and poorly equipped, morale was at an all-time low. The majority of senior and middle ranking Ukrainian officers were the product of Soviet defence educational establishments, many with at best neutral sentiments towards Moscow, and some willing to change sides (as happened in Crimea).

In 2022, the situation is different. The Ukrainian army has been recalibrated to confront a hostile Russia. The officer corps was cleansed of pro-Russia sympathisers. Individual and unit training as well as exercise activity intensified, with some equipment acquired. Many soldiers have gained combat experience in eastern Ukraine."

 

[KyMUfan]

You never tire of providing irrelevant links.

And you never seem to tire of providing irrelevant straw man arguments... I always thought the more information and perspectives you are familiar with, the better informed you will be. Sorry you can't see that...

Having "Fears" isn't the same as saying it's going to happen.

That sounds like an ignored member's 50/50 argument...😂😂😂

 

[Chevy1]

Do you really think he would have done this if he thought Putin was the bees' knees???

Do we really need to revisit all the videos of Trump praising Putin?

I believe Trump would have been in Tucker Carlson's camp if he were president and just come out and say he was for Russia in this fight. I could be wrong.

 

[Chevy1]

And you never seem to tire of providing irrelevant straw man arguments...

Funny from the king of irrelevant and deflective whataboutisms.

I always thought the more information

Relevant and contextual info is always good...yes.

 

[big_country90]

the new "Low T" republicans

Seriously…can you guys not come up with your own, unique insults?

 

[KyMUfan]

Do we really need to revisit all the videos of Trump praising Putin?

I believe Trump would have been in Tucker Carlson's camp if he were president and just come out and say he was for Russia in this fight. I could be wrong.

If it's that important to you... But please consider Russia has invaded two countries while Biden was POTUS and VPOTUS. None during Trump's term. Trump reversed prior administration actions, or inactions, by sending weaponry to Ukraine (albeit with some political maneuvering thrown in).

One thing I believe - both countries involved are corrupt. Russia by nature, Ukraine by nature, necessity or both. I also believe Biden has spoken out of turn on this as he has for the last 40 years. The WH walked back much of this even as you are championing his statements.

 

[KyMUfan]

Funny from the king of irrelevant and deflective whataboutisms.

Just responding to you in like kind...

 

[Chevy1]

If it's that important to you... But please consider Russia has invaded two countries while Biden was POTUS and VPOTUS.

One during W's presidency.

As has been mentioned on this board, why would Putin attack when Trump was giving him what he wanted?

IMO, there's as much evidence to support Trump would have sided with Russia in this thing as there is he would oppose it.

One thing I believe - both countries involved are corrupt. Russia by nature, Ukraine by nature, necessity or both. I also believe Biden has spoken out of turn on this as he has for the last 40 years. The WH walked back much of this even as you are championing his statements.

The Ukrainian president, military and people have earned respect. They've made great sacrifice for the right to determine their govt and have refused to be dominated by a commie dictator.

Damn right I support Biden's statement. Are countries going to rescind their sanctions against Russia with Putin there? Should they? Tough for Russia and the world to return to "normal" with him as president.

 

[extragreen]

Trump at least approved additional, and effective, weaponry for Ukraine.

Trump was actually reluctant to sell the missiles to Ukraine and did so only after he was persuaded it would be good for US business

 

[extragreen]

That sounds like an ignored member's 50/50 argument...

You're an idio.... <<< no T

 

[KyMUfan]

As has been mentioned on this board, why would Putin attack when Trump was giving him what he wanted?

Hmmm, did Putin want Ukraine armed?

Trump defies Putin with arms to Ukraine

In the annals of President Donald Trump’s odd dealings with Russia’s Vladimir Putin, give Trump credit for making a straightforward decision to defy Putin by supplying arms to Ukraine. …

www.chicagotribune.com

"In the annals of President Donald Trump’s odd dealings with Russia’s Vladimir Putin, give Trump credit for making a straightforward decision to defy Putin by supplying arms to Ukraine."

Did Putin want all of this? Note, this is from the left-leaning Brookings Institute...

On the record: The U.S. administration’s actions on Russia | Brookings

What has the administration actually done on Russia? Below is a chronological list of its actions and official statements since January 20, 2017. During that period, the administration has taken 27 actions on Russia.

www.brookings.edu

Left-leaning CNN also presented a fair assessment of Trump's Russian policies.

York: Now they tell us -- Trump was tough on Russia

Byron York looks at mainstream media's accusations of President Trump not being tough on Russia and finds evidence to the contrary

www.lubbockonline.com

"Then the evidence started coming in a fast and furious series of texts. Trump had, the lawmaker noted: 1) Bombed Syria, Russia's main client, and unleashed the U.S. military in Syria, including against Russians; 2) Armed Ukraine; 3) Weakened the Iran nuclear deal, and would likely soon end it [which Trump later did]; 4) Browbeat NATO allies to increase defense spending; 5) Approved $130 billion in new defense spending; 6) Added low-yield nukes to the U.S. arsenal; 7) Started research and development on a new missile after Russia deployed a missile that did not comply with the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty; 8) Shut down Russia's consulate in San Francisco; and 9) Pumped more U.S. oil and gas, making the U.S. more energy independent."

IMO, there's as much evidence to support Trump would have sided with Russia in this thing as there is he would oppose it.

Uranium One??? Keystone Pipeline??? More flexibility after the election??? Net increase in Russian oil imports his first year in office???

Wait, none of those were Trump...

Let's see your list of evidence. This ought to be good...

U.S. Imports from Russia of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products (Thousand Barrels)

www.eia.gov

 

[extragreen]

Hmmm, did Putin want Ukraine armed?

Trump defies Putin with arms to Ukraine

In the annals of President Donald Trump’s odd dealings with Russia’s Vladimir Putin, give Trump credit for making a straightforward decision to defy Putin by supplying arms to Ukraine. …

www.chicagotribune.com

"In the annals of President Donald Trump’s odd dealings with Russia’s Vladimir Putin, give Trump credit for making a straightforward decision to defy Putin by supplying arms to Ukraine."

Did Putin want all of this? Note, this is from the left-leaning Brookings Institute...

On the record: The U.S. administration’s actions on Russia | Brookings

What has the administration actually done on Russia? Below is a chronological list of its actions and official statements since January 20, 2017. During that period, the administration has taken 27 actions on Russia.

www.brookings.edu

Left-leaning CNN also presented a fair assessment of Trump's Russian policies.

York: Now they tell us -- Trump was tough on Russia

Byron York looks at mainstream media's accusations of President Trump not being tough on Russia and finds evidence to the contrary

www.lubbockonline.com

"Then the evidence started coming in a fast and furious series of texts. Trump had, the lawmaker noted: 1) Bombed Syria, Russia's main client, and unleashed the U.S. military in Syria, including against Russians; 2) Armed Ukraine; 3) Weakened the Iran nuclear deal, and would likely soon end it [which Trump later did]; 4) Browbeat NATO allies to increase defense spending; 5) Approved $130 billion in new defense spending; 6) Added low-yield nukes to the U.S. arsenal; 7) Started research and development on a new missile after Russia deployed a missile that did not comply with the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty; 8) Shut down Russia's consulate in San Francisco; and 9) Pumped more U.S. oil and gas, making the U.S. more energy independent."



Uranium One??? Keystone Pipeline??? More flexibility after the election??? Net increase in Russian oil imports his first year in office???

Wait, none of those were Trump...

Let's see your list of evidence. This ought to be good...

U.S. Imports from Russia of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products (Thousand Barrels)

www.eia.gov

You're an idio<<< no T

 

[Chevy1]

Hmmm, did Putin want Ukraine armed?

Trump defies Putin with arms to Ukraine

In the annals of President Donald Trump’s odd dealings with Russia’s Vladimir Putin, give Trump credit for making a straightforward decision to defy Putin by supplying arms to Ukraine. …

www.chicagotribune.com

"In the annals of President Donald Trump’s odd dealings with Russia’s Vladimir Putin, give Trump credit for making a straightforward decision to defy Putin by supplying arms to Ukraine."

Did Putin want all of this? Note, this is from the left-leaning Brookings Institute...

On the record: The U.S. administration’s actions on Russia | Brookings

What has the administration actually done on Russia? Below is a chronological list of its actions and official statements since January 20, 2017. During that period, the administration has taken 27 actions on Russia.

www.brookings.edu

Left-leaning CNN also presented a fair assessment of Trump's Russian policies.

York: Now they tell us -- Trump was tough on Russia

Byron York looks at mainstream media's accusations of President Trump not being tough on Russia and finds evidence to the contrary

www.lubbockonline.com

"Then the evidence started coming in a fast and furious series of texts. Trump had, the lawmaker noted: 1) Bombed Syria, Russia's main client, and unleashed the U.S. military in Syria, including against Russians; 2) Armed Ukraine; 3) Weakened the Iran nuclear deal, and would likely soon end it [which Trump later did]; 4) Browbeat NATO allies to increase defense spending; 5) Approved $130 billion in new defense spending; 6) Added low-yield nukes to the U.S. arsenal; 7) Started research and development on a new missile after Russia deployed a missile that did not comply with the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty; 8) Shut down Russia's consulate in San Francisco; and 9) Pumped more U.S. oil and gas, making the U.S. more energy independent."

Uranium One??? Keystone Pipeline??? More flexibility after the election??? Net increase in Russian oil imports his first year in office???

Wait, none of those were Trump...

Let's see your list of evidence. This ought to be good...

U.S. Imports from Russia of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products (Thousand Barrels)

www.eia.gov

All of that doesn't change the fact there's plenty of evidence Trump would have done a Tucker Carlson and sided with Russia.

 

[KyMUfan]

Let's see your list of evidence. This ought to be good...

there's plenty of evidence Trump would have done a Tucker Carlson and sided with Russia.

Steele Dossier???

 

[KyMUfan]

Hmmm...

The Problem With Trump’s Admiration of General Patton

“Old Blood and Guts” was undeniably a winner. The real trouble came after he won.

www.politico.com

"Patton is one of the very few role models Trump held up during his campaign; he frequently rued the fact that the military lacked modern-day Pattons"

'Silence Patton': First Victim of the Cold War

'Silence Patton': First Victim of the Cold War

www.huffpost.com

"As Stalin devoured Eastern Europe, Patton remarked, "I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them... the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks.""

 

[Chevy1]

Steele Dossier??

Whatever you say boss. Wonder if Mr. Bolton had any insight here?

"John Bolton: Trump Is a Putin-Loving Moron Who Thought Finland Was Part of Russia | Vanity Fair" https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/john-bolton-donald-trump-ukraine-finland-russia

"Trump praises Putin as Russia invades Ukraine, Biden imposes sanctions" https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...vades-ukraine-trump-praises-putin/6906770001/

 

[KyMUfan]

Wonder if Mr. Bolton had any insight here?

This Mr. Bolton?

Democrats lay into Trump's pick of Bolton for national security adviser

Congressional Democrats on Thursday were quick to condemn President Trump's decision to name former United States Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton as his next national security adviser.Trump tweeted early Thursday evening that Bolton, the hawkish former Bush administration official...

boyle.house.gov

@GerryConnolly: “POTUS has just destroyed rational policy-making in selecting reactionary John Bolton as National Security Advisor”

Rep. Brendan Boyle (D-Pa.) called Bolton a “dangerous radical” and a “disturbing nomination.”

@BettyMcCollum04: “.@AmbJohnBolton is a discredited architect of the Iraq War whose reckless views could lead us into war with Iran & North Korea. The Bolton appointment puts our national security at risk”

Democrats to Make Case Against Bolton

They cite 'overwhelming evidence' of the U.N. nominee's bullying and misleading testimony. A vote is expected today in a Senate committee.

www.latimes.com

"On the eve of a key vote on the nomination of John R. Bolton as U.N. ambassador, Senate Democrats said Wednesday that they had amassed “overwhelming evidence” in recent weeks that Bolton had stretched intelligence to fit his views, had tried to punish dissenters and had misled senators about his actions."

Always good to see Liberals like you spend 30 years trying to discredit someone but then attempt to use them as an "authoritative" source when it fits your (false) narrative...

 

[Chevy1]

This Mr. Bolton?

Democrats lay into Trump's pick of Bolton for national security adviser

Congressional Democrats on Thursday were quick to condemn President Trump's decision to name former United States Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton as his next national security adviser.Trump tweeted early Thursday evening that Bolton, the hawkish former Bush administration official...

boyle.house.gov

@GerryConnolly: “POTUS has just destroyed rational policy-making in selecting reactionary John Bolton as National Security Advisor”

Rep. Brendan Boyle (D-Pa.) called Bolton a “dangerous radical” and a “disturbing nomination.”

@BettyMcCollum04: “.@AmbJohnBolton is a discredited architect of the Iraq War whose reckless views could lead us into war with Iran & North Korea. The Bolton appointment puts our national security at risk”

Democrats to Make Case Against Bolton

They cite 'overwhelming evidence' of the U.N. nominee's bullying and misleading testimony. A vote is expected today in a Senate committee.

www.latimes.com

"On the eve of a key vote on the nomination of John R. Bolton as U.N. ambassador, Senate Democrats said Wednesday that they had amassed “overwhelming evidence” in recent weeks that Bolton had stretched intelligence to fit his views, had tried to punish dissenters and had misled senators about his actions."

Always good to see Liberals like you spend 30 years trying to discredit someone but then attempt to use them as an "authoritative" source when it fits your (false) narrative...

Putin loving moron sounds pretty accurate to me.

 

[i am herdman]

Putin loving moron sounds pretty accurate to me.

who the hell do you actually loves Putin? That shit is a broken record. You all sound like morons with that crap. Nobody love Putin. Good Lord.

 

[KyMUfan]

This Mr. Bolton?

Putin loving moron sounds pretty accurate to me.

So the Mr. Bolton you refer to is a Putin loving moron???

Soooo, why for so long have liberals like you have demonstrated nothing but disdain for this Mr. Bolton and now you are demonstrating such esteem for him (other than calling him a Putin loving moron...)?

 

[KyMUfan]

who the hell do you actually loves Putin? That shit is a broken record. You all sound like morons with that crap. Nobody love Putin. Good Lord.

When it's all you got this is what you do...☹️

Remember these same types don't know what a woman is...

 

[Chevy1]

who the hell do you actually loves Putin? That shit is a broken record. You all sound like morons with that crap. Nobody love Putin. Good Lord.

When it's all you got this is what you do...☹️

Remember these same types don't know what a woman is...

Wow!! Look at you two. Hey man, Trump's former National Security Advisor said that stuff.

Now, seriously, rest assured, I fully realize that doesn't mean it's true. But believable? Absolutely.

 

[KyMUfan]

Trump's former National Security Advisor said that stuff.

And I thought it was a bad hire at the time and still do. I've said it before and will say it again. Part of Trump's appeal is he wasn't a politician and was a DC outsider. Accordingly he was naive in many aspects and made some terrible hires, including this one.

 

[KyMUfan]

Meanwhile I am sure the Biden apologists are busy making excuses for this too...

General Walks Back Biden Remarks on US Training Ukrainian Troops in Poland

"I do not believe we are in the process of currently training military forces from Ukraine in Poland," General Tod Wolters said.

www.newsweek.com

 

[i am herdman]

Meanwhile I am sure the Biden apologists are busy making excuses for this too...

General Walks Back Biden Remarks on US Training Ukrainian Troops in Poland

"I do not believe we are in the process of currently training military forces from Ukraine in Poland," General Tod Wolters said.

www.newsweek.com

Biden is either making gaffe talk or he is giving away classified information(which he does have a reputation you know).

 

[KyMUfan]

Biden is either making gaffe talk or he is giving away classified information(which he does have a reputation you know).

My favorite but I've never been able to find a copy of the video (I did see it on TV though) is when Biden told about the secret communications center behind the steel door under the VP mansion...

 

[johns1124]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...sedgntp&cvid=eb94cd46b20849a6abdaaa254d0b8cde

"Ukraine carried out a precision strike with the Tochka-U missile on an ammunition warehouse in the village of Oktyabrskoe, near Belgorod, Russia. Russia supplies its artillery attacking Ukraine with rockets and missiles stored at the facility,"

"Judging by the explosion and the distance of the warehouse, the 19th missile brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine has conducted an effective effort to demilitarize and denazify Russia,"

 

[Chevy1]

And I thought it was a bad hire at the time and still do. I've said it before and will say it again. Part of Trump's appeal is he wasn't a politician and was a DC outsider. Accordingly he was naive in many aspects and made some terrible hires, including this one.

Don't disagree about the hire, but hiring good folks is a big part of that job.

There's a long line of Trump staffers, cabinet members and advisors who made similar comments. In the end, even Bill Barr concluded Trump wasn't fit for the job.

Bolton's certainly in the news these days.
"Bolton: Trump made it "that much easier" for Putin to invade Ukraine" https://www.axios.com/bolton-trump-deterred-russia-ukraine-c7173aaa-1283-4304-b0bf-0a868d3a93a5.html

"John Bolton Says 'Putin Was Waiting' For Trump To Withdraw From NATO In Second Term" https://news.yahoo.com/john-bolton-says-putin-waiting-171026840.html

"John Bolton: Putin would already be in Kyiv if Trump was in charge" https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...ld-already-be-in-kyiv-if-trump-was-in-charge/

 

[i am herdman]

Don't disagree about the hire, but hiring good folks is a big part of that job.

There's a long line of Trump staffers, cabinet members and advisors who made similar comments. In the end, even Bill Barr concluded Trump wasn't fit for the job.

Bolton's certainly in the news these days.
"Bolton: Trump made it "that much easier" for Putin to invade Ukraine" https://www.axios.com/bolton-trump-deterred-russia-ukraine-c7173aaa-1283-4304-b0bf-0a868d3a93a5.html

"John Bolton Says 'Putin Was Waiting' For Trump To Withdraw From NATO In Second Term" https://news.yahoo.com/john-bolton-says-putin-waiting-171026840.html

"John Bolton: Putin would already be in Kyiv if Trump was in charge" https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...ld-already-be-in-kyiv-if-trump-was-in-charge/

Chevy, Trump nor any other President can withdraw us from NATO. That's in the Constitution.

Bolton got fired by Trump. Why? He is a war hawk and wanted to start wars with every nation and their brothers.

 

[KyMUfan]

He is a war hawk and wanted to start wars with every nation and their brothers.

And evidently write books too...

 

[Chevy1]

Chevy, Trump nor any other President can withdraw us from NATO. That's in the Constitution.

Bolton got fired by Trump. Why? He is a war hawk and wanted to start wars with every nation and their brothers.

Bolton was a neocon hawk when he was hired and has been one forever. Plus, he has zero tolerance for commies... especially Putin. Don't know what Trump expected from him.

IMO, the death knell for Bolton occurred when he didn't immediately get amnesia after Trump's "perfect phone call". My guess is their relationship went south after one of Bolton's staff gave Congress a heads up about that call.

 

[i am herdman]

Bolton was a neocon hawk when he was hired and has been one forever. Plus, he has zero tolerance for commies... especially Putin. Don't know what Trump expected from him.

IMO, the death knell for Bolton occurred when he didn't immediately get amnesia after Trump's "perfect phone call". My guess is their relationship went south after one of Bolton's staff gave Congress a heads up about that call.

The one where Mush was laundering money out of Ukraine via his son

Yehh and look at Ukraine now

 

[Chevy1]

The one where Mush was laundering money out of Ukraine via his son

Yehh and look at Ukraine now

No...Trump Impeachment #1.

I guess you believe Ukraine shouldn't be pushing back so hard. Just submit to the commie dark lord. WTF happened to you?

 

[SamSwimmer]

The fact John “Never Met a War I Didn’t Like“ Bolton is being sourced by either side is nuts

 

[i am herdman]

No...Trump Impeachment #1.

I guess you believe Ukraine shouldn't be pushing back so hard. Just submit to the commie dark lord. WTF happened to you?

what are you even talking about? Of course Ukraine should. what does that have to do with Mush laundering money via his son in Ukraine? of course Ukraine should fight back against Russia. Hell, I have called on us to do more.

Where are you even coming from? Anybody that questions Mush now is a commie? Good Lord

yehh that is what Trump got impeached for. For calling out Mush's money laundering in Ukraine

Now what does that have to do with you calling me a commie? Good Lord. I support Ukraine and Russian's invasion is ludicrous and barbaric. So, you think that makes me a commie? Hell, Mush didn't do enought to begin with to try to stop it. He is reactionary and still could do more. But, you call me a commie? For what reason?

 

[extragreen]

The one where Mush was laundering money out of Ukraine via his son

Yehh and look at Ukraine now

You're an idiot.

 

[extragreen]

what does that have to do with Mush laundering money via his son in Ukraine?

You're a lying idiot.

For calling out Mush's money laundering in Ukraine

You're a lying idiot trumptard.

Hell, Mush didn't do enought to begin with to try to stop it

You're a lying idiot trumptard oath breaker.

 

[Chevy1]

what are you even talking about? Of course Ukraine should. what does that have to do with Mush laundering money via his son in Ukraine? of course Ukraine should fight back against Russia. Hell, I have called on us to do more.

Where are you even coming from? Anybody that questions Mush now is a commie? Good Lord

yehh that is what Trump got impeached for. For calling out Mush's money laundering in Ukraine

Now what does that have to do with you calling me a commie? Good Lord. I support Ukraine and Russian's invasion is ludicrous and barbaric. So, you think that makes me a commie? Hell, Mush didn't do enought to begin with to try to stop it. He is reactionary and still could do more. But, you call me a commie? For what reason?

Just glad you haven't gone soft on the commies - I was starting to get worried.

Russia bombing women and children had nothing to do with what Biden did or didn't do in Ukraine some years ago. I'll admit what went down then was horseshit... regardless of it's legality. But this is a deflection.

Trump was impeached for withholding congressionally approved money for the Ukraine military in exchange for dirt on his political opponent.... Biden.

As far as doing too little, I'm inclined to agree, but it's also clear things were done in preparation.

We'll see how this thing turns out. If Ukraine gets Russia to back off and the US is kept out of another war - especially one that could go nuclear - then the execution would have been successful. At this time, it looks like Russia won't be able to install their govt - so that's a victory.

 

[KyMUfan]

Trump was impeached for withholding congressionally approved money for the Ukraine military in exchange for dirt on his political opponent.... Biden.

But this is a deflection.