NHR: Total Bloodbath at ESPN

[-CarlHungus-]

I agree that things like pot busts wher a white kid gets off more than blacks skews a lot of numbers. My wife is very well versed in this (attorney that used to do mainly black poverty family law /non profit stuff).

I recall that murders though heavily skewed toward higher rate of black perps (vs other race) when I looked at this before. I'm not talking absolute numbers, I'm talking as a percentage of underlying race population (numerator is number of convicted black murderers, denominator is number of black people in US).

I'm not well educated on this though, and am on mobile running errands today, so can't look it up again. Some of the stuff I was reading may have been biased, but I do recall thinking the violent crimes tended to be more prevalent with black race, but controlling for confounders like poverty or justice system inequities is tough.

 

[Herd Fever]

No, he didn't. Like usual, he and others on your side have no idea what you are talking about and bullshit your way with false comments. Here, let me help . . .




That is entirely false. According to the FBI published statistics, there were 8.2 million arrests in the U.S. in 2015 where race was documented. Of those 8.2, 5.7 million were arrests of whites. So, no, non-whites do not commit a higher percentage of crimes than whites (at least based on arrests).

Now, the FBI doesn't classify Hispanics or Latinos as non-whites. That skews the numbers. But the 2015 FBI report has only about 1.3 million Hispanic arrests. Even with those deducted from the white total, whites still commit more crimes.

If by "non-whites" you intended to say blacks, you would still be wrong. If you are aiming to say that blacks have a higher crime rate, you'd be correct. In 2015, the black population was about 14% in the U.S. while they committed about 26% of crimes. But that isn't what you said.

You didn't just get it wrong, you also drastically got it wrong by using "far higher" in your alternative fact.

Now that we have your incorrect bullshit out of the way, lets look at it more.

You say that blacks draw more suspicion simply for being black, since blacks have a higher crime rate (which as I have explained, is entirely different than committing more crimes in total). Lets dumb this down some, shall we?

Assume 100 cars with white occupants pass a police officer. Assume 10 are in violation of a law (misdemeanor and/or felony). Assume only 1 car is pulled over out of the 100. How likely are any of the 10 criminals likely to be caught?

Assume 100 cars with black occupants pass a police officer. Assume 20 are in violation of a law (misdemeanor and/or felony). Assume only 20 of the cars are pulled over out of the 100.

I am sure you can see that profiling also results in blacks being arrested more than whites; not just because they have a higher crime rate, but also because they are stopped more. Check out the NYC stop-and-frisk policy which went on for many years. If you're a white criminal, you have a far less likely chance of getting stopped than a black criminal. As a result, arrest rates will reflect an even higher disproportionate percentage for blacks than who the actual criminals are.

The most important part of all of this is that our criminal justice system is not supposed to be based on race. Yet, based on your own statement, that is exactly what is happening. Blacks are being looked at suspiciously more than whites, hence, resulting in a disproportionate number of stops/arrests. If whites were stopped at a similar rate, the numbers would be closer. Due non-white commit more crimes than whites? No. Do blacks commit more crimes than whites? No. Do blacks commit more crimes per capita? Yes. Are blacks stopped at a much higher rate per capita? Yes. As a result, the already higher crime rate is exposed and manipulated even more.




This shows ignorance and lack of world experience.

The crime you hear/read about in Chicago isn't paralyzing the city. It is within certain neighborhoods in the city. I would much rather raise a family in Chicago than Putnam County, West Virginia . . . and it isn't even close.

But how about looking at what you were implying:

Chicago has a black population of about 33%.
Putnam County has a black population of about 1%.
Chicago has a white population of about 31%.
Putnam County has a white population of about 97%.

There isn't set crime data just for Putnam County that I can find. But in looking at cities like Hurricane, Winfield, etc., you'll see that their crime rates for property aren't much different than Chicago. You'll see violent crime 2-3 times higher in Chicago, but as I mentioned, much of that is limited to small areas in the city where your cracker-ass wouldn't be wandering.

For the huge disparity of whites and non-whites between two areas, your theory isn't holding up at all.

And that is keeping it 100. Facts are Facts.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

I think Serena is hot.

You got jungle fever?

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

As an aside, I probably agree mostly with you and rifle (re: blacks have inherent disadvantages still). However, I also agree with 'Licious that framing the education of the masses on this has been botched due to the negative connotations of the term "White Privilege," which many (for better or worse) perceive as "you didn't get to where you're at because of hard work because it's easy being White." .

Not here. I argue that while there are instances in which being white has built in privilege, income and wealth are now the predominant determination of that privilege in much of the USA. On the flip side, poverty and not race is the root of much of what I'll the black community.

 

[C.K. Ocsevol-Evad]

Not here. I argue that while there are instances in which being white has built in privilege, income and wealth are now the predominant determination of that privilege in much of the USA.

That's quite a flip from your earlier stance in this thread where you stated that believing that white privilege exists is bullshit. Hell, acknowledging that it exists, like you have now done (albeit claiming it to be behind wealth), is basically a 180 from your previous stance.

You and others in this thread continue to indicate that you don't fully understand what white privilege is. It isn't a case of white guy doesn't like blacks, hence blacks are at a disadvantage.

When I get to a computer tomorrow, I'll create a story showing just how deep white privilege is and how it is so much deeper than what is being discussed on here; things that are systematic and go back decades.

 

[andy4theherd]

yes, if you use the all encompassing "arrests" statistic it will heavily favor whitey who makes up 77% of the population. that's a lot of dime bags and DUI's.

if you look at homicide by race/ethnicity(2015)
2,897 - white (77.1% of total US population)
2,934 - black (13.3% of total US population)
755 - Hispanic/Latino (17.6% US population)

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....f_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2015.xls

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045216/00


while BC was wrong claiming non-whites commit more crimes, they do in fact commit more of the most serious crime.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

That's quite a flip from your earlier stance in this thread where you stated that believing that white privilege exists is bullshit. Hell, acknowledging that it exists, like you have now done (albeit claiming it to be behind wealth), is basically a 180 from your previous stance.

You and others in this thread continue to indicate that you don't fully understand what white privilege is. It isn't a case of white guy doesn't like blacks, hence blacks are at a disadvantage.

When I get to a computer tomorrow, I'll create a story showing just how deep white privilege is and how it is so much deeper than what is being discussed on here; things that are systematic and go back decades.

Sorry for long post.,,


I'm not speaking for Raoul, but I think what he may be suggesting is that to a large degree the "White Privilege" can be to varying degrees based on geography/demographics.

It really doesn't help you get a leg up in rural WV or IN where everyone around you is white, so there's really not much inherent benefit if you're coming from there (and plan on staying there).

I think you both have real points though and from someone like me that deals with more strong data/endpoints in science/ medicine (like randomized trials), the soft social sciences are hard for me to make any real conclusions. It's nearly impossible to tease out cause/effect when things are in flux and you can't possibly randomize or control confounders like poverty/income and single parent households (aside: it shouldn't be viewed as a "privilege" to have a married mom and dad...I'm not saying anyone in this thread views it that way, but some people do. It's sad to me that's not normal in many communities) and they blur the lines and make the conversation difficult to follow.

Do I think white privilege exists? Yes. Do I think some people have put it on a pedestal as a be all end all cause for black poverty and reasonable people can disagree about its current impact in 2017? Yes.

Someone smarter than me needs to figure out how to bridge the divide and explain it all and not just deem everyone who disagrees with you as racist. I can't possibly know what it's like to be black, but being white from Appalachia isn't really that glamorous.

===

My wife understands this all better than me in working with black poverty and education access for years. She'd probably agree with rifle that a history of under privilege has largely lead to many of the challenges and lack of infrastructure in black communities (i.e. Grandparent or parent grew up in a time when blacks didn't go to college, so then education may not be as valued, etc etc).

It's just really hard to know how to fix it. Lots of major problems and misconceptions that hurt like single parent households, and bastardizing
/inflating the notion that Whites have advantages into a morphed up notion that whites have it easy, have and are scamming to get ahead, and are so ahead that blacks stand no chance so defeatism abounds.

Another aside: I'd be interested to hear rifle's experience at the HBCU, as my wife said many times they'd consider steering good students away from there as she said they could be messes.

 

[raleighherdfan]

It's just really hard to know how to fix it.

From the poverty standpoint: It starts with the person/people in poverty deciding not to accept it as their norm or inevitable future and ending their reliance on someone else promising to do it for them.

The answers lie in learning what others have done to change their path. Regardless of race, examples of people changing their generational socioeconomic challenges are everywhere. Reinventing the process isn't necessary. Find a successful person (regardless of their race) and study them. Their thoughts, attitudes, and habits. And copy it as close as you are able. Yes. It is that simple. Most that have achieved live by the same creeds regardless of their color.

The challenge with those in society that mock such a suggestion or deny it's effectiveness is their misguided premise that doing so would/should result in the same outcome within the same timeline as the person they are using as their muse, otherwise, "see!!! It didn't work".

Our society wastes too much time focusing on the problem instead of actually living the solutions that have worked for generations for countless people who have altered the course of their "predetermined" path.

Society promotes victims. Feeling bad and complaining about your life and how you've been screwed over is "honorable" (even if you are rich). Life is supposed to be easy with no work, effort or time involved. "Individualism" is frowned upon. Self interest is preached to be selfish and greedy. This undermines the foundation needed to start the process of upward mobility. No matter where the baseline exists for people looking to move.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

From the poverty standpoint: It starts with the person/people in poverty deciding not to accept it as their norm or inevitable future and ending their reliance on someone else promising to do it for them.

The answers lie in learning what others have done to change their path. Regardless of race, examples of people changing their generational socioeconomic challenges are everywhere. Reinventing the process isn't necessary. Find a successful person (regardless of their race) and study them. Their thoughts, attitudes, and habits. And copy it as close as you are able. Yes. It is that simple. Most that have achieved live by the same creeds regardless of their color.

The challenge with those in society that mock such a suggestion or deny it's effectiveness is their misguided premise that doing so would/should result in the same outcome within the same timeline as the person they are using as their muse, otherwise, "see!!! It didn't work".

Our society wastes too much time focusing on the problem instead of actually living the solutions that have worked for generations for countless people who have altered the course of their "predetermined" path.

Society promotes victims. Feeling bad and complaining about your life and how you've been screwed over is "honorable" (even if you are rich). Life is supposed to be easy with no work, effort or time involved. "Individualism" is frowned upon. Self interest is preached to be selfish and greedy. This undermines the foundation needed to start the process of upward mobility. No matter where the baseline exists for people looking to move.

Good post. It's hard to argue with a lot of it and I probably can't because I'm far from an expert in poverty. Would be interesting to hear others takes on it.

I think their can be unique challenges to different cultures (ie black inner city versus asian immigrant, etc), but many of the same principles apply.

 

[HerdFan73]

And that is keeping it 100. Facts are Facts.

Like the fact that you ignored that the oppressed, unprivileged Serena Williams is the highest paid female athlete in the world ?

 

[herdfan429]

Like the fact that you ignored that the oppressed, unprivileged Serena Williams is the highest paid female athlete in the world ?

I don't think 2016 data has been released yet but sharapova was highest paid female athlete in 2015 according to forbes

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

The answers lie in learning what others have done to change their path. Regardless of race, examples of people changing their generational socioeconomic challenges are everywhere. Reinventing the process isn't necessary. Find a successful person (regardless of their race) and study them. Their thoughts, attitudes, and habits. And copy it as close as you are able. Yes. It is that simple. Most that have achieved live by the same creeds regardless of their color.

That's all great. What you fail to acknowledge is that many of the youth have almost no chance at all. I had an office in the 'hood of 'hoods in DC. I had a major police station 50 yards across the street or else I probably wouldn't have done too well there; even still, one morning, I looked out an upstairs window to see police officers taping off a car parked on the side of the street. A victim had been rotting in his car right across from the police station for days with nobody calling it in.

I would go out to get lunch every single day. Multiple times per week - whether at the grocery store to get a sandwich, at the local Chinese place, or at a fast food spot - I would think to myself "damn, that kid has absolutely no chance in life." It was all based on how their single-parent mother was raising them.

Mothers were beating on their young children in public, yelling and swearing at them, etc. These kids go without; they don't have proper tools at school (no desks, no books, fed-up teachers who put in no effort), they don't have any type of moral standards shown to them, they don't have anybody to mentor them or follow a path of success. Sorry, but I am not going to hold a 12 year old accountable for his future when he has never seen anything but what goes on in those neighborhoods. And if they haven't started a foundation by that age, it is almost impossible to get them back on track for success . . . and that's even if you can find a way for them to escape their environment at that age.

A few years ago, I coached a kid who had never been further than 45 minutes from his house. Until he was 18 years old and took official recruiting visits, the furthest place he had ever gone was 45 minutes away from his 'hood and that was only for school/athletic activities. His view of the world was only what he was able to see in his neighborhood. Another kid I coached watched, as a child, his father pummel his mother to death in the head with a hammer.

When I would go out to get food, many people would look at me like I was a zoo exhibit. They had never seen a white person in person. They didn't mean anything offensive by it, but they were wide-eyed. If you have ever been to parts of Asia as a person with blonde hair or a black person, it is very similar. In those parts of Asia, mobs of people will get right in your face and take pictures of you, jump next to you to get a picture with you in public, etc. Going to lunch in that neighborhood was sort of the same experience every day.

So, if a child doesn't have somebody's example of success to follow, and has every single thing working against their ability to succeed, how can you think the plan you suggest should somehow work for them?

This isn't a victim mentality or society focusing on the problem instead of living the solution. There is no living solution that exists in many of these areas.

And a lot of it, as much as you want to deny its existence, is rooted in systematic and institutional racism. Before any of you challenge that, please save my time and limit my use of "moron" by educating yourself what those things are and seeing examples that happen of them. Note: those things aren't the same as individual racism. They aren't examples of a rich white guy hating black guys so he doesn't hire him.

 

[Herd Fever]

Like the fact that you ignored that the oppressed, unprivileged Serena Williams is the highest paid female athlete in the world ?

I ignored it because Forbes said otherwise.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

That's all great. What you fail to acknowledge is that many of the youth have almost no chance at all. I had an office in the 'hood of 'hoods in DC. I had a major police station 50 yards across the street or else I probably wouldn't have done too well there; even still, one morning, I looked out an upstairs window to see police officers taping off a car parked on the side of the street. A victim had been rotting in his car right across from the police station for days with nobody calling it in.

I would go out to get lunch every single day. Multiple times per week - whether at the grocery store to get a sandwich, at the local Chinese place, or at a fast food spot - I would think to myself "damn, that kid has absolutely no chance in life." It was all based on how their single-parent mother was raising them.

Mothers were beating on their young children in public, yelling and swearing at them, etc. These kids go without; they don't have proper tools at school (no desks, no books, fed-up teachers who put in no effort), they don't have any type of moral standards shown to them, they don't have anybody to mentor them or follow a path of success. Sorry, but I am not going to hold a 12 year old accountable for his future when he has never seen anything but what goes on in those neighborhoods. And if they haven't started a foundation by that age, it is almost impossible to get them back on track for success . . . and that's even if you can find a way for them to escape their environment at that age.

A few years ago, I coached a kid who had never been further than 45 minutes from his house. Until he was 18 years old and took official recruiting visits, the furthest place he had ever gone was 45 minutes away from his 'hood and that was only for school/athletic activities. His view of the world was only what he was able to see in his neighborhood. Another kid I coached watched, as a child, his father pummel his mother to death in the head with a hammer.

When I would go out to get food, many people would look at me like I was a zoo exhibit. They had never seen a white person in person. They didn't mean anything offensive by it, but they were wide-eyed. If you have ever been to parts of Asia as a person with blonde hair or a black person, it is very similar. In those parts of Asia, mobs of people will get right in your face and take pictures of you, jump next to you to get a picture with you in public, etc. Going to lunch in that neighborhood was sort of the same experience every day.

So, if a child doesn't have somebody's example of success to follow, and has every single thing working against their ability to succeed, how can you think the plan you suggest should somehow work for them?

This isn't a victim mentality or society focusing on the problem instead of living the solution. There is no living solution that exists in many of these areas.

And a lot of it, as much as you want to deny its existence, is rooted in systematic and institutional racism. Before any of you challenge that, please save my time and limit my use of "moron" by educating yourself what those things are and seeing examples that happen of them. Note: those things aren't the same as individual racism. They aren't examples of a rich white guy hating black guys so he doesn't hire him.

This is on par with The Wire season 4.,, and what my wife talked about.

Many have zero chance. They literally don't care about much because they think they'll be dead at 30 or they've never met an adult that cares for them.

Same goes for a kid growing up in Mingo with parent on oxy's...so many parallels but so different in other ways.

Got to find a way to drop that single parent phenomenon. It's hard enough to grow up in poverty, but with one parent it's especially hard. I feel like my wife and I can barely do a good job with our 2+ kids, I can't imagine poverty and dingle parent.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

But rifle , back to raliegh's point - we can identify problems - but what is/are the solution(s)?

 

[HerdFan73]

I ignored it because Forbes said otherwise.

Did they ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...lds-highest-paid-female-athlete/#0efa7fabe603

 

[Walden Pond]

but what is/are the solution(s)?

The solution does not exist. Just like a calculus problem where the limit does not exist.

People must have problems for which there are no solutions. The mirage of strife is essential for survival.

 

[raleighherdfan]

That's all great. What you fail to acknowledge is that many of the youth have almost no chance at all. I had an office in the 'hood of 'hoods in DC. I had a major police station 50 yards across the street or else I probably wouldn't have done too well there; even still, one morning, I looked out an upstairs window to see police officers taping off a car parked on the side of the street. A victim had been rotting in his car right across from the police station for days with nobody calling it in.

I would go out to get lunch every single day. Multiple times per week - whether at the grocery store to get a sandwich, at the local Chinese place, or at a fast food spot - I would think to myself "damn, that kid has absolutely no chance in life." It was all based on how their single-parent mother was raising them.

Mothers were beating on their young children in public, yelling and swearing at them, etc. These kids go without; they don't have proper tools at school (no desks, no books, fed-up teachers who put in no effort), they don't have any type of moral standards shown to them, they don't have anybody to mentor them or follow a path of success. Sorry, but I am not going to hold a 12 year old accountable for his future when he has never seen anything but what goes on in those neighborhoods. And if they haven't started a foundation by that age, it is almost impossible to get them back on track for success . . . and that's even if you can find a way for them to escape their environment at that age.

A few years ago, I coached a kid who had never been further than 45 minutes from his house. Until he was 18 years old and took official recruiting visits, the furthest place he had ever gone was 45 minutes away from his 'hood and that was only for school/athletic activities. His view of the world was only what he was able to see in his neighborhood. Another kid I coached watched, as a child, his father pummel his mother to death in the head with a hammer.

When I would go out to get food, many people would look at me like I was a zoo exhibit. They had never seen a white person in person. They didn't mean anything offensive by it, but they were wide-eyed. If you have ever been to parts of Asia as a person with blonde hair or a black person, it is very similar. In those parts of Asia, mobs of people will get right in your face and take pictures of you, jump next to you to get a picture with you in public, etc. Going to lunch in that neighborhood was sort of the same experience every day.

So, if a child doesn't have somebody's example of success to follow, and has every single thing working against their ability to succeed, how can you think the plan you suggest should somehow work for them?

This isn't a victim mentality or society focusing on the problem instead of living the solution. There is no living solution that exists in many of these areas.

And a lot of it, as much as you want to deny its existence, is rooted in systematic and institutional racism. Before any of you challenge that, please save my time and limit my use of "moron" by educating yourself what those things are and seeing examples that happen of them. Note: those things aren't the same as individual racism. They aren't examples of a rich white guy hating black guys so he doesn't hire him.

Suggesting there is no living solution is a little absurd. Some escape this life. More than you may realize. You also assume that no one else has ever experienced the "hood" or witnessed its harsh environment. I've had the fortune of hiring and mentoring many younger people who have lived in places like you describe. Many of those have gone on to obtain what they dreamed.

Thank goodness most of them didn't have your pessimistic attitude of impoverished inevitability and actually believed they could have and do better if given an opportunity to prove it.

Nothing you said changes what I suggested must come first before "change" at any level of society can take place. The INDIVIDUAL must decide to do something different. The individual must take the first step in their own process.

To suggest they have no example is also puzzling. Especially considering that almost everyone I've met and worked with from the hood had access to cable tv, internet and books at a school or library; could probably tell you about the last Jerry Springer episode or who the 1st pick of the NFL Draft was over the weekend. In other words, they have access to the resources an information to see and learn about success and change if they really want to.

For crying out loud. How about the last president!! I may not be a fan of Obummer policy but I can not ignore the fact his ability to come from modest means to the highest and most prominent office in the world. The fact that not even you can recognize Obama as an example someone in the hood could use to help chart their own path to improvement is telling in many ways (that could lead us off topic).

Shit...I've been acknowledging institutional racism on this board since I started posting. Until the impoverished minority community acknowledges their own role in their current existence, no amount of govt funding, EBT cards, free cellphones, discounted housing, etc will change their place. Until they quit depending on misleading political campaign slogans of "hope and change" to do the work for them, until they acknowledge and change their own racist, bigoted actions and attitudes that keep them locked in desperation and keep their corrupt community "leaders" locked in power; they are doomed for continued generational institutional dependence (that many misguided folks love to sell as "compassion").

 

[raleighherdfan]

This is on par with The Wire season 4.,, and what my wife talked about.

Many have zero chance. They literally don't care about much because they think they'll be dead at 30 or they've never met an adult that cares for them.

Same goes for a kid growing up in Mingo with parent on oxy's...so many parallels but so different in other ways.

Got to find a way to drop that single parent phenomenon. It's hard enough to grow up in poverty, but with one parent it's especially hard. I feel like my wife and I can barely do a good job with our 2+ kids, I can't imagine poverty and dingle parent.

These are good points. This is the govt plantation that far too many minority leaders accept. They have solidified their position of power by instituting the racist policies that keep many of their constituents dependent for generations.

 

[big_country90]

yes, if you use the all encompassing "arrests" statistic it will heavily favor whitey who makes up 77% of the population. that's a lot of dime bags and DUI's.

if you look at homicide by race/ethnicity(2015)
2,897 - white (77.1% of total US population)
2,934 - black (13.3% of total US population)
755 - Hispanic/Latino (17.6% US population)

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....f_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2015.xls

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045216/00


while BC was wrong claiming non-whites commit more crimes, they do in fact commit more of the most serious crime.

Given my Chicago/Putnam County comparison, I thought that was assumed. My bad. The percentages aren't even close.

 

[Herd Fever]

This is on par with The Wire season 4.,, and what my wife talked about.

Many have zero chance. They literally don't care about much because they think they'll be dead at 30 or they've never met an adult that cares for them.

Same goes for a kid growing up in Mingo with parent on oxy's...so many parallels but so different in other ways.

Got to find a way to drop that single parent phenomenon. It's hard enough to grow up in poverty, but with one parent it's especially hard. I feel like my wife and I can barely do a good job with our 2+ kids, I can't imagine poverty and dingle parent.

It's amazing that people sit here and think and feel it's just the Man fault in the single parent thing. Some abandoned, some get killed, some the mother keeps the father away for whatever reason, some are locked away forever by doing things to support the family.

Y'all make it seem like poor men just up and leave once the baby is born.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

while BC was wrong claiming non-whites commit more crimes, they do in fact commit more of the most serious crime.

No, no, no! Goddammit, Drew! I just went over this with you- you can't keep spewing bullshit on here. You aren't cheeto. Only he is allowed to continuously fabricate things and then claim the others are fake. You're wasting my fvcking time now. You are doing exactly what it took me a year to break 30Pussy of doing on the smack board. You can't just throw out bullshit and expect to get away with it!

The FBI classifies the violent crimes as murder/non-negligent manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. I think it is fair to say that we would all agree that violent crimes are the most serious of crimes (excluding the random, far lower committed serious crimes - espionage, etc.).

In 2015, according to the FBI stats . . .

Murder/non-negligent homicide:
- whites: 3908
- blacks: 4347

Rape:
- whites: 11,809
- blacks: 4907

Robbery:
- whites: 32,439
- blacks: 39,052

Aggravated Assault:
- whites: 184,024
- blacks: 92,237

When it comes to violent crime, whites far out-commit blacks.

The FBI also has statistics for these categories: burglary, larceny, motor vehicle theft, arson, counterfeiting/forgery, embezzlement, fraud, other assaults, possession of stolen property, prostitution, gambling, sex crimes (excluding rape and prostitution), vandalism, weapons possession, offenses against the family, curfew violations, loitering, DUI, liquor law, drunkenness, disorderly conduct, vagrancy, all other offenses (besides traffic), and suspicion. Other than gambling, white commit more in every single one of those categories.

So, not only do whites commit more "violent offenses" based on what the FBI categorizes (which I think is fair to claim as the most serious offenses), but whites also commit more of every other single category other than gambling.

Stop with the bullshit you are trying to get to stick.

Given my Chicago/Putnam County comparison, I thought that was assumed. My bad. The percentages aren't even close.

You thought what was clear? That blacks commit more serious crimes than whites? That's entirely wrong.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

Suggesting there is no living solution is a little absurd.

That's not what I said. I said for MANY of them, there is ALMOST no chance. I stand by that, and I don't know how you could argue otherwise. Go look at the statistics for DC graduation rates at the public schools in the worst neighborhoods:

Moore- 37%
Anacostia- 39%
Cardozo- 41%
Ballou- 50%
Coolidge- 51%
Dunbar- 55%
Woodson- 60%
Roosevelt- 62%

As a whole, these schools are under 50% graduation rate. Look at those at Anacostia and Cardozo. 60% of them have no chance. How few of the remaining 40% do you think are going to college? It is a very, very small percentage. In another post, I will touch upon how even those with a high school diploma still have very little chance.

For crying out loud. How about the last president!! I may not be a fan of Obummer policy but I can not ignore the fact his ability to come from modest means to the highest and most prominent office in the world. The fact that not even you can recognize Obama as an example someone in the hood could use to help chart their own path to improvement is telling in many ways (that could lead us off topic).

Am I speaking a different language? Look at Obama - a guy whose mother had a PhD, a guy whose mother was one of the first two female VPs at a bank, a guy whose formative years were at a private school, a guy whose birth father went on to have a Harvard degree, a guy whose step-father was college educated, a guy who then lived with his grandparents (two adults) after moving back to Hawaii . . . and trying to use that as some textbook example of how somebody in the 'hood can make it out?

To suggest they have no example is also puzzling. Especially considering that almost everyone I've met and worked with from the hood had access to cable tv, internet and books at a school or library; could probably tell you about the last Jerry Springer episode or who the 1st pick of the NFL Draft was over the weekend. In other words, they have access to the resources an information to see and learn about success and change if they really want to.

Good. I was hoping somebody would try using some of these examples so that I can transition it into a long lesson. I guessed it would have been Drew or Herdman, but you're attempt is just as useful. It will be a long post, so I may not finish it until tomorrow.

But rifle , back to raliegh's point - we can identify problems - but what is/are the solution(s)?

They aren't about stopping Tyler Whiteman from discriminating against Jermaine Blackman. They are rooted far deeper than that, and I will include them in my long post.

 

[big_country90]

You thought what was clear? That blacks commit more serious crimes than whites? That's entirely wrong.

As a whole number, no, because whites outnumber blacks by a very wide margin. But as a percentage, yes...by a wide margin. Geez, rifle, why are you ignoring that one glaring fact here in order to make your argument seem valid? Plus, I said non-whites. This recent set of numbers only includes whites and blacks.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

As a whole number, no, because whites outnumber blacks by a very wide margin. But as a percentage, yes...by a wide margin. Geez, rifle, why are you ignoring that one glaring fact here in order to make your argument seem valid? .

What the fvck? I am the one who pointed that out first! I am the one who brought that into this conversation. So how am I supposedly ignoring it? Remember when I typed this in post #120 in this thread:

"If you are aiming to say that blacks have a higher crime rate, you'd be correct. In 2015, the black population was about 14% in the U.S. while they committed about 26% of crimes. But that isn't what you said."

Ignoring it? Christ, I am the one who brought it to the table to try helping your miserably failed argument. And you are now claiming that I am ignoring something that I actually brought to the table to make my argument "seem" valid even though it is entirely accurate and valid?

Name one thing in this discussion that I said that hasn't been valid. What I argued was entirely valid. I can't help it that what you said was completely false, then somebody tried helping you (which you then agreed with) which ended up also being completely false, then you tried changing what you intended to articulate.

Plus, I said non-whites. This recent set of numbers only includes whites and blacks.

And I also acknowledged that in the very same post on the previous page.

You can't say one thing, come back and claim you meant something entirely different, have somebody else say something incorrect to try correcting your false statement, and then blame the person who pointed out your errors.

 

[Herd Fever]

This is why I saw away from arguing social and racial facts with feeble minded Rednecks from Appalachia

 

[raleighherdfan]

This is why I saw away from arguing social and racial facts with feeble minded Rednecks from Appalachia

Yes. Just as I said. Until minorities acknowledge and irradicate their own racist and bigoted prejudices, they are doomed to be complaining about the same shit for another 50 years.

 

[raleighherdfan]

Am I speaking a different language? Look at Obama - a guy whose mother had a PhD, a guy whose mother was one of the first two female VPs at a bank, a guy whose formative years were at a private school, a guy whose birth father went on to have a Harvard degree, a guy whose step-father was college educated, a guy who then lived with his grandparents (two adults) after moving back to Hawaii . . . and trying to use that as some textbook example of how somebody in the 'hood can make it out?

The "VP" time line and father (Harvard degree) is a little misleading. Obama barely knew his father during his formative years (Obama's own words), his mother sending him to be with grandparents while she lived with husband #2, for many of his early years is a typical social structure (absent parents) for many in the hood.

(As for Obamas education opportunities....funny how he happily used the educational choice he was given, but quickly advocated taking it away from those in DC, who were actually getting access to books, desks, and better teachers through their voucher program.--probably another discussion for another time)

Like I explained thoroughly. "Getting out" is about making a decision to do something different for your life... first. Until the individual accepts that simple premise....nothing will change for them.

Suggesting that anyone cant look to another for inspiration, learn their habits, thoughts, etc. simply because their current socioeconomic class isn't identical to the "mentor" one looks to emulate is ridiculous. More disturbing, a white dude "looking down from an office window" and inferring that they most likely "cant" or "wont", simply because of a "statistic", is the kind of systematic racism that continues to lock these people in the hood for generations. You're mocking the idea that a kid from the hood that I hire or mentor (or a kid you recruit and/or coach) cant learn or model their life, to make changes and live differently from my/your experiences and knowledge, simply because I/you didn't grow up in the projects. This is the kind of bigotry that has to be eliminated from culture if there is to ever be a reduction in poverty and improvement in race relations.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

The "VP" time line and father (Harvard degree) is a little misleading. Obama barely knew his father during his formative years (Obama's own words), his mother sending him to be with grandparents while she lived with husband #2, for many of his early years is a typical social structure (absent parents) for many in the hood.

Misleading? His mother was the VP of a bank while Barack was still living with her. From his birth until age 11, Barack was with his mother full-time. This included working her way up from clerk at a bank to a vice-president and continuing to earn degrees. It was also when he was enrolled in a private school. Then, at age 11, Barack moved to Hawaii with his grandparents. Just one year later, his mother moved back to Hawaii where she joined Barack. She was with him for three more years there. So, from birth until age 15, Barack was with his mother full-time for 14 years. Misleading? Hardly. Hell, kids in Greenwich go to summer camp for two months every year until they are 16. Those kids are without their CEO parents far more than Barack was without his mother. You're really trying to claim that it is misleading by saying that Barack's formative years were spent with a mother who earned multiple degrees and worked her way up from a bank teller to a vice-president? What I claimed is exactly correct and entirely valid.

Like I explained thoroughly. "Getting out" is about making a decision to do something different for your life... first. Until the individual accepts that simple premise....nothing will change for them.

This just shows how disconnected you are from reality. You have two groups in these neighborhoods. You have a group which claims that they are going to be the one to make it out and buy their mother a house in the suburbs. Then, you have the group that is realistic and knows the chances of them doing that are slim to none.

When your formative years are spent in these neighborhoods, you have very little chance at getting out. You can't simply have a switch turned on showing how to do things. Watching The Cosby Show is not a blueprint to success. Wanting to be the one that gets out isn't the problem; there are many who want to get out. Having the opportunity to do that is what is the issue, which I will delve into in my next post.

But claiming that this problem is rooted in an individual not making a decision to do something different with their life shows an extreme disconnect with reality.

Suggesting that anyone cant look to another for inspiration, learn their habits, thoughts, etc. simply because their current socioeconomic class isn't identical to the "mentor" one looks to emulate is ridiculous.

It isn't ridiculous, it is reality. There are multiple issues related to how far you are disconnected from reality. First, there aren't examples for them to look to. As I said, watching The Cosby Show isn't an example. Second, even if they were able to see a blueprint from somebody close to them, the means just aren't there. They don't have the same resources as most other places in the country. Again, I will touch on that in my next post.

More disturbing, a white dude "looking down from an office window" and inferring that they most likely "cant" or "wont", simply because of a "statistic", is the kind of systematic racism that continues to lock these people in the hood for generations. You're mocking the idea that a kid from the hood that I hire or mentor (or a kid you recruit and/or coach) cant learn or model their life, to make changes and live differently from my/your experiences and knowledge, simply because I/you didn't grow up in the projects. This is the kind of bigotry that has to be eliminated from culture if there is to ever be a reduction in poverty and improvement in race relations.

That is one of the worst leaps I have seen on this board in quite a long time.

Oh, you're hiring kids from the 'hood without a high school degree? Interesting. Let me know what positions and how many you are hiring.

Yes, I am saying that the vast majority of these kids aren't going to make it out. Why? They don't have a blueprint or the resources to make it out. Put my ass in their exact same situation from birth, and I would also easily bet against myself to make it out.

Look at Carol City High School. As seniors, their math proficiency score as a school is 14%. Only 14% of their seniors - the ones who from that neighborhood who actually stayed in school - are proficient in math for their grade level. Their college readiness score is 7.5. 7.5! These are the kids who actually stay in school. And you think they have a chance? They don't. It isn't for lack of desire or effort. It is for lack of a blueprint and a severe lack of resources.

Want to see the notable and successful alums from Carol City? Rick Ross, Flo Rida, Denzel Curry (rapper), Brisco (rapper), and a bunch of former professional athletes (Danny Tartabull, Santana and Sinorice Moss, Rannell Hall, Allen Hurns, Nick Esasky, etc.). Hell, kids from that school have a better chance becoming a famous rapper or professional athlete than they do of becoming an MD, attorney, etc.

You think it is bigoted to claim that they have a slim chance of making it out? Tell me this - who do you put more money on going to college and/or earning a college degree:

A) Tyler Whiteman from Greenwich whose father is a CFO at a Fortune 500 company, mother is an MD but only works low hours per week at the hospital, has had the same bilingual nanny since his birth, goes to one of the best private schools in the northeast, and has numerous classmates whose parents are all Ivy alums and Fortune 500 executives

B) Jermaine Blackman from Overtown whose father was murdered when Jermaine was two years old, whose mother left years ago after having numerous drug/prostitution arrests, whose grandmother works three jobs over seven days per week in order to afford the two bedroom apartment for Jermaine and his two siblings to live in with her, who goes to Booker T High School.

Who do you think has a better chance? Is it bigoted to think that Tyler Whiteman has a better chance at success? Of course it isn't. It is based on having the resources to be successful. One of them does, one of them doesn't.

It isn't an issue of "mocking a kid from the 'hood . . . not being able to make changes and live differently . . . from a mentor." It is that they don't have that mentor to learn from nor the resources to make it happen.

Stating otherwise is just a severe lack of reality.

 

[i am herdman]

That's all great. What you fail to acknowledge is that many of the youth have almost no chance at all. I had an office in the 'hood of 'hoods in DC. I had a major police station 50 yards across the street or else I probably wouldn't have done too well there; even still, one morning, I looked out an upstairs window to see police officers taping off a car parked on the side of the street. A victim had been rotting in his car right across from the police station for days with nobody calling it in.

I would go out to get lunch every single day. Multiple times per week - whether at the grocery store to get a sandwich, at the local Chinese place, or at a fast food spot - I would think to myself "damn, that kid has absolutely no chance in life." It was all based on how their single-parent mother was raising them.

Mothers were beating on their young children in public, yelling and swearing at them, etc. These kids go without; they don't have proper tools at school (no desks, no books, fed-up teachers who put in no effort), they don't have any type of moral standards shown to them, they don't have anybody to mentor them or follow a path of success. Sorry, but I am not going to hold a 12 year old accountable for his future when he has never seen anything but what goes on in those neighborhoods. And if they haven't started a foundation by that age, it is almost impossible to get them back on track for success . . . and that's even if you can find a way for them to escape their environment at that age.

A few years ago, I coached a kid who had never been further than 45 minutes from his house. Until he was 18 years old and took official recruiting visits, the furthest place he had ever gone was 45 minutes away from his 'hood and that was only for school/athletic activities. His view of the world was only what he was able to see in his neighborhood. Another kid I coached watched, as a child, his father pummel his mother to death in the head with a hammer.

When I would go out to get food, many people would look at me like I was a zoo exhibit. They had never seen a white person in person. They didn't mean anything offensive by it, but they were wide-eyed. If you have ever been to parts of Asia as a person with blonde hair or a black person, it is very similar. In those parts of Asia, mobs of people will get right in your face and take pictures of you, jump next to you to get a picture with you in public, etc. Going to lunch in that neighborhood was sort of the same experience every day.

So, if a child doesn't have somebody's example of success to follow, and has every single thing working against their ability to succeed, how can you think the plan you suggest should somehow work for them?

This isn't a victim mentality or society focusing on the problem instead of living the solution. There is no living solution that exists in many of these areas.

And a lot of it, as much as you want to deny its existence, is rooted in systematic and institutional racism. Before any of you challenge that, please save my time and limit my use of "moron" by educating yourself what those things are and seeing examples that happen of them. Note: those things aren't the same as individual racism. They aren't examples of a rich white guy hating black guys so he doesn't hire him.

So how is that our fault?

 

[i am herdman]

This is why I saw away from arguing social and racial facts with feeble minded Rednecks from Appalachia

Would you care if someone used the N word on here?

 

[C.K. Ocsevol-Evad]

So how is that our fault?

I missed where I said it was.

As I mentioned before, the deeper issue isn't simple individual racism. Sure, it exists. The bigger problem is systematic and institutional racism which has been built into our society for decades. Once pool time is over today, I'll explain better.

 

[Herd Fever]

I missed where I said it was.

As I mentioned before, the deeper issue isn't simple individual racism. Sure, it exists. The bigger problem is systematic and institutional racism which has been built into our society for decades. Once pool time is over today, I'll explain better.

Not decades, centuries

 

[C.K. Ocsevol-Evad]

Not decades, centuries

No, decades. "Centuries" would imply at least going back to 1817. The institutional racism that impacts blacks today isn't the same as slavery and lack of rights back then.

 

[Herd Fever]

No, decades. "Centuries" would imply at least going back to 1817. The institutional racism that impacts blacks today isn't the same as slavery and lack of rights back then.

So you seriously think Institutional and Systematic racism only started decades ago? Wow you need a True history lesson on the world. Between the Arab Slave Trade, the European Slave trade, the East Indian Indentured servitude in the Caribbean, American Slavery, Post Civil War America, The American West, the Jim Crow Era, Imperialism, The White Race Riots in the North, till now with Mass Incarceration, Redlining in the West and the North, and the defunding of Inner city schools, yea this is only a decades long problem.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

So you seriously think Institutional and Systematic racism only started decades ago? Wow you need a True history lesson on the world. Between the Arab Slave Trade, the European Slave trade, the East Indian Indentured servitude in the Caribbean, American Slavery, Post Civil War America, The American West, the Jim Crow Era, Imperialism, The White Race Riots in the North, till now with Mass Incarceration, Redlining in the West and the North, and the defunding of Inner city schools, yea this is only a decades long problem.

I thought he was pretty clear in that he's relating it to what impacts present day blacks in America. Arab Slave Trade probably has little to do with that, or at least just a minimal contribution at best.

...unless my feeble Appalachian mind is wrong here.

 

[Herd Fever]

It has all contributed to the problems of today.

 

[i am herdman]

You got jungle fever?

I would like get up in that jungle

 

[i am herdman]

I missed where I said it was.

As I mentioned before, the deeper issue isn't simple individual racism. Sure, it exists. The bigger problem is systematic and institutional racism which has been built into our society for decades. Once pool time is over today, I'll explain better.

So what do you think when you hear someone with a southern or Appalachian accent?

 

[ARandomHerdFan]