what is the real deal with fauci and the malaria dug?

[i am herdman]

why do we need all these clinical trials during a pandemic? IF front line doctors are saying it works and it appears to work why is he demanding waiting on these studies? What do some people have to lose? Would you rather die? Or hey this might cause a heart murmur later. Ok, doc, if not I am going to croak anyway .

He is like one of those Pentagon Generals or bureaucrats that don't listen to the troops. Hey this strategy, plan, or tactic works.This weapon works, sirs. Nope can't do it. Need a study. Ok, but we are getting shot up and this works. Nope.

So, what is his deal? Why is he so against it?

 

[-CarlHungus-]

The front line docs you’re referring to think they know it works but they don’t really know until the trials are run. There is more robust data for steroids and to a lesser degree remdesivir.

The randomized phase three trial is the way we really know things work. Not all ailments can be studied in a trial but covid most certainly can.

The trials thus far are underwhelming for hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is littered with “treatments” that people swore worked until they were rigorously tested in randomized trials...then they were shown to be not actually helpful (see vioxx, bone marrow transplants for breast cancer, vitamin E, etc).

You can read more in this book:

Amazon product ASIN 1421417723

 

[i am herdman]

The front line docs you’re referring to think they know it works but they don’t really know until the trials are run. There is more robust data for steroids and to a lesser degree remdesivir.

The randomized phase three trial is the way we really know things work. Not all ailments can be studied in a trial but covid most certainly can.

The trials thus far are underwhelming for hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is littered with “treatments” that people swore worked until they were rigorously tested in randomized trials...then they were shown to be not actually helpful (see vioxx, bone marrow transplants for breast cancer, vitamin E, etc).

You can read more in this book:

View embedded media

don't they know it works when it fixes people?

 

[herdfan06]

The front line docs you’re referring to think they know it works but they don’t really know until the trials are run. There is more robust data for steroids and to a lesser degree remdesivir.

The randomized phase three trial is the way we really know things work. Not all ailments can be studied in a trial but covid most certainly can.

The trials thus far are underwhelming for hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is littered with “treatments” that people swore worked until they were rigorously tested in randomized trials...then they were shown to be not actually helpful (see vioxx, bone marrow transplants for breast cancer, vitamin E, etc).

You can read more in this book:

View embedded media

Why are you contesting Herdman? Are you a doctor or something?

 

[herdfan06]

don't they know it works when it fixes people?

If you take your car to the shop because it is making a strange noise, did they fix it if it no longer makes the noise?

 

[-CarlHungus-]

don't they know it works when it fixes people?

No.

90%+ people will recover from Covid. You have no clue if the drug you gave actually helped.

No way to know what really works unless you flip a coin - give heads pateint gets drug X. Tails drug Y. Then see what happens.

You don’t need a randomized trial to know a parachute out of a plane works. You need a trial for a disease like covid.

 

[imherdfan]

This is from Dr Garth Davis, thought it was a good explanation:


I am just absolutely perplexed by the uproar about hydroxychloroquine. All of a sudden everybody is an expert. I don’t care if people use it or don’t but the dialogue is ridiculous.

First was the politically paid for joke of a press conference. Now, a more substantial editorial by a Yale epidemiologist. Of course, nobody reads the actual article. They just post headlines and make it sound like he is censored which is absurd. He isn’t. I enjoyed his article. BUT his main complaint is that the randomized controlled trials did not give the drug early enough and if given too late it won’t work. He goes through several older retrospective reviews.

A retrospect review looks back on patients and says, well this one got the drug and this one didn’t and and this one did better. It is helpful, and the retrospective reviews looked encouraging, which is why there was a rush on the drug early on in the pandemic. However, there are many things wrong with retrospective studies. We don’t know if it was the drug that made them do better or something else. They show correlation NOT causation. To see if they show causation you have to do better studies.

This month we have had several randomized control trials. They were done early in treatment and randomized to Hydroxychloroquine with or without azithromycin. Two looked at early disease and one looked at people exposed to see if it could prevent infection. All three showed no effect. In addition, NIH had organized a huge RCT but ended it prematurely because they were not seeing any positive results.

A doctor telling you he has treated 300 people successfully is very low quality data. How sick were these people? Would they have gotten better anyway? It is a useful observation to study. That is what has happened with the drug and so far the tests show it doesn’t work. Maybe next month we see studies showing it works. Great. Then use it. Why this is some kind of political conspiracy theory is just beyond me. Physicians argue all the time about treatments. Best you can do is look at highest quality of data. Hate me if you want but all I can tell you is that the best data we have to date shows it doesn’t work.

 

[GK4Herd]

The front line docs you’re referring to think they know it works but they don’t really know until the trials are run. There is more robust data for steroids and to a lesser degree remdesivir.

The randomized phase three trial is the way we really know things work. Not all ailments can be studied in a trial but covid most certainly can.

The trials thus far are underwhelming for hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is littered with “treatments” that people swore worked until they were rigorously tested in randomized trials...then they were shown to be not actually helpful (see vioxx, bone marrow transplants for breast cancer, vitamin E, etc).

You can read more in this book:

View embedded media

No.

90%+ people will recover from Covid. You have no clue if the drug you gave actually helped.

No way to know what really works unless you flip a coin - give heads pateint gets drug X. Tails drug Y. Then see what happens.

You don’t need a randomized trial to know a parachute out of a plane works. You need a trial for a disease like covid.

Doing God's work.

 

[marshallisqbu]

Just give me oxygen and steroids and a few prayers. Hopefully soon we will have a vaccine. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

 

[raleighherdfan]

Suddenly lefties think Big Pharma funded studies must be believed.

 

[i am herdman]

Why are you contesting Herdman? Are you a doctor or something?

I am asking questions, not contesting anyone.

 

[i am herdman]

No.

90%+ people will recover from Covid. You have no clue if the drug you gave actually helped.

No way to know what really works unless you flip a coin - give heads pateint gets drug X. Tails drug Y. Then see what happens.

You don’t need a randomized trial to know a parachute out of a plane works. You need a trial for a disease like covid.

so what is the harm in giving in giving it to them? Some of these doctors swear it works.

 

[i am herdman]

If you take your car to the shop because it is making a strange noise, did they fix it if it no longer makes the noise?

If I drive it for another 50,000 miles then yes it fixed it.

 

[i am herdman]

Suddenly lefties think Big Pharma funded studies must be believed.

That is the whole deal here. They want this magic vaccine. The malaria drug is too readily available and cheap.

I know if I was going to die from it, I would say load me up on it. I don't have time for the study.

 

[herdfan06]

If I drive it for another 50,000 miles then yes it fixed it.

Why would you wait 50,000 miles to confirm the issue was resolved? Does the driver not know if the issue was resolved when they leave the lot?

 

[i am herdman]

Why would you wait 50,000 miles to confirm the issue was resolved? Does the driver not know if the issue was resolved when they leave the lot?

uggh you said it was making a noise and then not making a noise. plenty of doctors say this is working

 

[herdfan06]

uggh you said it was making a noise and then not making a noise. plenty of doctors say this is working

Just because the noise is gone does not mean the issue has been resolved, nor does it mean other issues might not arise as a result of the fix.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

so what is the harm in giving in giving it to them? Some of these doctors swear it works.

1. It may in fact harm. Small risk of heart problems.

2. The longer we go without enrolling patients on trials the longer we have to wait to know if something works.

3. I don’t think someone should be banned from giving it, but see #1 and 2 above.

 

[mlblack16.]

It may in fact harm. Small risk of heart problems

I'm not saying it works, but hell every Rx drug out there comes with a laundry list of "potential," but unlikely side effects. Remdesivir is far more risky to take, based on what I've read.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

I'm not saying it works, but hell every Rx drug out there comes with a laundry list of "potential," but unlikely side effects. Remdesivir is far more risky to take, based on what I've read.

Like QBU said above - best data seems to be steroids. Lots of side effects with then to.

We just don’t have a slam dunk treatment.

 

[ohio herd]

here is what a professor of epidemiology from from Yale says

https://justthenews.com/politics-po...ays-hydroxychloroquine-key-defeating-covid-19

 

[mlblack16.]

Like QBU said above - best data seems to be steroids. Lots of side effects with then to.

We just don’t have a slam dunk treatment.

Just for clarification Doc, do you mean the kind of steroids a dude who posts creepy selfies on random message boards would take or are you talking about steroids like Prednisone?

 

[-CarlHungus-]

Just for clarification Doc, do you mean the kind of steroids a dude who posts creepy selfies on random message boards would take or are you talking about steroids like Prednisone?

like prednisone (dexamethasone).

 

[-CarlHungus-]

here is what a professor of epidemiology from from Yale says

https://justthenews.com/politics-po...ays-hydroxychloroquine-key-defeating-covid-19

It may very well work early in the disease course. Unfortunately I believe one of the trials testing this closed early before accrual.

We need the trials done to know.

 

[GK4Herd]

What’s the real deal with Trump’s Coronavirus testing czar, Bret Giroir, on the malarial drug? On Meet the Press when asked if it was effective...


At this point in time, we don’t recommend that as a treatment and there’s no evidence to show that it is.”

“So hydroxychloroquine needs to be prescribed by a physician,” the HHS official replied. “There may be circumstances, and I don’t know what they are, where a physician may prescribe it for an individual.”

“But I think most physicians and prescribers are evidence-based and they’re not influenced by whatever’s on Twitter or anything else and the evidence just doesn’t show that hydroxychloroquine is effective right now,” he continued. “I think we need to move on from that and talk about what is effective.”

 

[GK4Herd]

And what’s the real deal with Dr. Deborah Birx, Response Coordinator of Coronavirus Task Force, on the malarial drug? On Fox and Friends...


"Because science and medicine have always been full of accounts like this. And, that's why you do randomized clinical trials to actually be able to compare patient to patient. Everything that you just reported on had no controls in those individual practices." Controls in trials, or including people not getting a certain treatment in experiments, are important because they help to minimize bias in results when investigating if a drug does or doesn't work.”

“We know in the randomized controlled trials to date—and there's been several of them—that there's not evidence that it improves those patients' outcomes. Whether they have mild, moderate disease or whether they're seriously ill in the hospital."

 

[GK4Herd]

What’s the real deal with the FDA, the government agency tasked with public health, and the malarial drug? Updates from their website...


July 1, 2020 Update: A summary of the FDA review of safety issues with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat hospitalized patients with COVID-19 is now available. This includes reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure.

June 15, 2020 Update: Based on ongoing analysis and emerging scientific data, FDA has revoked the emergency use authorization (EUA) to use hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat COVID-19 in certain hospitalized patients when a clinical trial is unavailable or participation is not feasible. We made this determination based on recent results from a large, randomized clinical trial in hospitalized patients that found these medicines showed no benefit for decreasing the likelihood of death or speeding recovery. This outcome was consistent with other new data, including those showing the suggested dosing for these medicines are unlikely to kill or inhibit the virus that causes COVID-19. As a result, we determined that the legal criteria for the EUA are no longer met. Please refer to the Revocation of the EUA Letter and FAQs on the Revocation of the EUA for Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate and Chloroquine Phosphate for more information.

 

[GK4Herd]

And what’s the real deal with Trump supporters and the malarial drug? From all over the internet...

“Fauci bad...malarial drug good.”

 

[Chevy1]

And what’s the real deal with Trump supporters and the malarial drug? From all over the internet...

“Fauci bad...malarial drug good.”

That Trump loyalty oath is some powerful shit.

 

[mlblack16.]

That Trump loyalty oath is some powerful shit.

And so is Trump Derangement Syndrome.

 

[Chevy1]

And so is Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Some might consider those attempting to support Trump's ridiculous claims as "deranged"

 

[i am herdman]

Some might consider those attempting to support Trump's ridiculous claims as "deranged"

So the doctors that have been talking about it and using it are derranged?

I would trust an ER doctor or hospital doctor to treat me more than Fauci.

 

[Chevy1]

So the doctors that have been talking about it and using it are derranged?

I would trust an ER doctor or hospital doctor to treat me more than Fauci.

Many have replaced facts with ideology. You trust the ER Dr because it supports your political beliefs.

 

[19MU88]

Many have replaced facts with ideology. You trust the ER Dr because it supports your political beliefs.

LOL either that or he trusts the ER Dr because that Dr has actually treated someone in the last 50 years. How long has Fauci been a bureaucrat? 40 45 years??

I guess we should say Chevy trusts Twitter more than the Dr.'s treating people because it supports his political beliefs. The "medical experts" at Twitter silence the opinions of Dr.'s.

 

[GK4Herd]

LOL either that or he trusts the ER Dr because that Dr has actually treated someone in the last 50 years. How long has Fauci been a bureaucrat? 40 45 years??

I guess we should say Chevy trusts Twitter more than the Dr.'s treating people because it supports his political beliefs. The "medical experts" at Twitter silence the opinions of Dr.'s.

Says the person who can’t differentiate between the doctor who sews you up after a drunken fall on a Saturday night and one who spent their entire life working with infectious diseases. Of course in a world that has literally millions of doctors, you can always find an outlier to support your political agenda. But for those predisposed to logic, the predominance of the evidence obtained through clinical trial shows the malarial drug ineffective. The two doctors on this board also align with the scientific community.

And even more to the point, Dr. Birx has shown that she is willing to walk the gauntlet between saying what’s necessary to placate her boss, but still draws the line when it comes to science and public health. Which is why when asked directly if the malarial drug is effective she says...and I quote...


“Because science and medicine have always been full of accounts like this. And, that's why you do randomized clinical trials to actually be able to compare patient to patient. Everything that you just reported on had no controls in those individual practices." Controls in trials, or including people not getting a certain treatment in experiments, are important because they help to minimize bias in results when investigating if a drug does or doesn't work.”

This woman may play the political game, but when it comes to the greater good of public health, she is first and foremost a doctor. It must be a bizarro world that people can actually hand pick bits of voices out of the entirety of the scientific community...voices that they have to stoop to actual witch doctors that believe in demons spawning in people’s sleep...to support some obviously faulty science that aligns with their worldview.

History will not look kindly on that.

 

[WV-FAN]

if there's a cure, trump should keep his mouth shut about it. if he says one thing in support, the TDS liberal mentally deranged will swear up and down it doesn't work, it'll kill a person, trump has invested in it, and whatever else negative they can conjure up about it. they really are a sick bunch.

 

[GK4Herd]

So the doctors that have been talking about it and using it are derranged?

I would trust an ER doctor or hospital doctor to treat me more than Fauci.

Yes...yes...many of them...and by many of them I mean the handful in millions of dissenting voices...are deranged. For example, the doctor that Trump retweeted...this is some of the stuff she believes...


Immanuel, a pediatrician and a religious minister, has a history of making bizarre claims about medical topics and other issues. She has often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches.

She alleges alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments, and that scientists are cooking up a vaccine to prevent people from being religious. And, despite appearing in Washington, D.C. to lobby Congress on Monday, she has said that the government is run in part not by humans but by “reptilians” and other aliens.

And who supports this trash?...

Immanuel gave her viral speech on the steps of the Supreme Court at the “White Coat Summit,” a gathering of a handful of doctors who call themselves America’s Frontline Doctors and dispute the medical consensus on the novel coronavirus. The event was organized by the right-wing group Tea Party Patriots, which is backed by wealthy Republican donors.


This is what you’re stooping to when you waive science in favor of what supports your political view.

 

[GK4Herd]

if there's a cure, trump should keep his mouth shut about it. if he says one thing in support, the TDS liberal mentally deranged will swear up and down it doesn't work, it'll kill a person, trump has invested in it, and whatever else negative they can conjure up about it. they really are a sick bunch.

Or...he can get behind the science and medical community that are making real progress on both vaccines and treatment. And if developed during his administration take credit. By mostly osmosis I suppose.

 

[ARandomHerdFan]

I can't believe that no one has addressed the real elephant in the room...

The misspelling of "drug" in the title of the thread.

 

[GK4Herd]

I can't believe that no one has addressed the real elephant in the room...

The misspelling of "drug" in the title of the thread.

Wow...didn’t notice that. Must be like this...

Most people don’t see the extra “the”.