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Religion: ain't it grand

And look there. Thunder still can't come up with a legitimate response. Every one of Jesus's miracles and beatitudes were based on the premise of prosperity and abundance of thought and action (aka "wealth"). Keep denying it Thunder. Your doctrine has blinded you well.

It would be easier to respond if your arguments weren't so absurd. First, the entire premise of your position presupposes that people follow Christ's teachings/example in order to gain something from it. That is anathema to the very essence of Christ. Jesus sacrificed himself for a world that still hates and fears him, not for some personal benefit. Christians are supposed to follow his example, not for gain, but for love. To the extent that there is a sense of satisfaction from doing good works, I suppose you could argue there is a self-benefit, but that is twisted logic. The key is the underlying motivation - whether you are following these teachings out of love and discipleship, or to make yourself feel good. Second, Christ performed miracles to glorify the Father, not to make himself "look" good (if that were the case, it certainly didn't have the desired consequences b/c he was killed for it). ALL of Christ's actions we're solely for the benefit of bridging the gap between man and God so that we might have a personal relationship with him. Hope that better explains my position.
 
Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with a positive attitude. At the same time, having a positive attitude doesn't mean everything is going to work out in your favor. Christ's gospel offers no promise of prosperity or a carefree life, which is what Osteen teaches. Osteen teaches you can have that job, good health, house etc. if you just stay positive, follow God's teachings, and ask Him for those things. That is false doctrine.

Christ was all about prosperity.

"False"to those that don't have true faith or understanding that what they have received up to this point in life, is in large part, having the life you asked for.

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. Proverbs 23:7

This bible stuff is easy.
 
I can copy and paste bible versus just like you can Greed. That's about the extent of the understanding you have.

And look there. Thunder still can't come up with a legitimate response. Every one of Jesus's miracles and beatitudes were based on the premise of prosperity and abundance of thought and action (aka "wealth"). Keep denying it Thunder. Your doctrine has blinded you well.

The big difference is I understand some of those bible verses. You apparently understand none of them. Furthermore, you don't understand why you don't have understanding. You actually think the streets are paved of gold. That would be funny if we were discussing less important topics.
 
Christ was all about prosperity.

"False"to those that don't have true faith or understanding that what they have received up to this point in life, is in large part, having the life you asked for.

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. Proverbs 23:7

This bible stuff is easy.

You don't understand that quote either. What a shame.
 
It would be easier to respond if your arguments weren't so absurd. First, the entire premise of your position presupposes that people follow Christ's teachings/example in order to gain something from it. That is anathema to the very essence of Christ. Jesus sacrificed himself for a world that still hates and fears him, not for some personal benefit. Christians are supposed to follow his example, not for gain, but for love. To the extent that there is a sense of satisfaction from doing good works, I suppose you could argue there is a self-benefit, but that is twisted logic. The key is the underlying motivation - whether you are following these teachings out of love and discipleship, or to make yourself feel good. Second, Christ performed miracles to glorify the Father, not to make himself "look" good (if that were the case, it certainly didn't have the desired consequences b/c he was killed for it). ALL of Christ's actions we're solely for the benefit of bridging the gap between man and God so that we might have a personal relationship with him. Hope that better explains my position.

First you are assuming that I believe a real "Christ" ever existed in the form described by 12 ultra rich dudes who wanted to control that part of the world. But let's not get caught up in historical perspectives.

How can Christians like yourself ignore The everlasting eternal life being the ultimate payout? It isn't illogical at all to assume that's why religion/Christianity is sold to the masses. Human beings were given the capacity to love and care for people without acknowledging a "Christ" as the reason. Yet. We are being told here that that isn't enough. That without Christ we are doomed to eternal fire. That judgement will be given and eternal death will be bestowed. Religion is totally about what you and anyone gets out of it (in the end). Otherwise, there is no point to it.
 
Yeah, Christ's gospel was so much about prosperity that all of his closest friends were persecuted and murdered (except John, who died in exile). If that's not "prosperity," I don't know what is.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3790384

Ironically you are not much different than those who were crucifying the messengers of prosperity back then. Your attitude and words towards Joel olsteen most likely resemble those naysayers of times past.

I would suggest a little history reading outside of the bible for a an accurate context of what was going on in that part of the world at that time. Anyone with a message of hope and prosperity was an enemy of the state. (Much like the current political climate).
 
Ironically you are not much different than those who were crucifying the messengers of prosperity back then. Your attitude and words towards Joel olsteen most likely resemble those naysayers of times past.

I would suggest a little history reading outside of the bible for a an accurate context of what was going on in that part of the world at that time. Anyone with a message of hope and prosperity was an enemy of the state. (Much like the current political climate).

Your arrogance betrays you. You assume because I am a believer, I haven't read historical texts beyond the Bible, which is incorrect.

You keep saying Christ taught a prosperity doctrine - please provide examples. I have no idea what you are talking about. I am interested to see these verses.

Also, it would be a lot easier to take you seriously is you didn't keep misspelling osteens name.
 
Osteen teaches you can have that job, good health, house etc. if you just stay positive, follow God's teachings, and ask Him for those things. That is false doctrine.

So you can't get that stuff with God? I don't see how this is false. It says you can, not you will. It's not an ironclad guarantee that you'll get all that stuff.

The message is if you're doing God's will in your pursuits, which I take to mean doing the right thing, then you'll turn out to be blessed. It's no ironclad guarantee of free Cadillacs dropping out of the sky. It's just a nice way to go about life.

If you fall short of the specific goal, so what? You still lived well, did the right thing and you can breathe your last knowing you're on your way to heaven. That is if you believe in all of that. Myself, I believe if I do the right thing I can die peacefully knowing I led a decent life. It's just paving the way for a death without being filled with a bunch of regrets.
 
Your arrogance betrays you. You assume because I am a believer, I haven't read historical texts beyond the Bible, which is incorrect.

You keep saying Christ taught a prosperity doctrine - please provide examples. I have no idea what you are talking about. I am interested to see these verses.

Also, it would be a lot easier to take you seriously is you didn't keep misspelling osteens name.

Every miracle he performed was for the purpose of demonstrating abundance and prosperity thinking. E.g. Do you think that turning water into the best wine was to demonstrate poverty thinking? If you knew of history you would know that a wedding that went on for days was by no means a poor family wedding. These were not poor Jews he was celebrating with. They were rich. So the best was provided. It wasn't for the benefit of God that the wedding party got drunk and partied for days. Its also known that the poor were despised during that time. Being poor was viewed as a sin against god....(still is in the jewish faith)

How about Jesus's feeding the masses from a few fish and few loaves of bread. Was this a miracle about "not having enough" or always believing you have enough and more will be provided when needed?

How about Jesus telling the disciples where to cast their nets in order to catch fish? Once they did, their "nets overflowed". Yes.....abundance.

In the words of your Christ. "I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly." John 10:10

Olsteen.....Osteen.....What do you care how its spelled hypocrite? I admitted to not following him much. You claimed not take him seriously at all.
 
What? I mean . . . What???

Oh, you mean you didn't know that the disciples were not chosen because they were poor beggars and didn't have a job or money? Yes, that would be true. Takes a lot of work convincing a wealthy tax collector to leave a lucrative govt gig to go saving souls. Of course, what would convince such men to leave their livelihoods to start preaching?????? What would that be Thunder? Maybe a promise of more.............ABUNDANCE (than they already had)?
 
Oh, you mean you didn't know that the disciples were not chosen because they were poor beggars and didn't have a job or money? Yes, that would be true. Takes a lot of work convincing a wealthy tax collector to leave a lucrative govt gig to go saving souls. Of course, what would convince such men to leave their livelihoods to start preaching?????? What would that be Thunder? Maybe a promise of more.............ABUNDANCE (than they already had)?

soooo, your position is all of the apostles were tax collectors or wealthy? Are you serious? That's not even remotely true. Where in the world did you dig that up?
 
To respond to your other post, every miracle Christ performed was for the purpose of confirming His own divine nature. Every. Single. One. It wasn't for the purpose of providing a benefit or gain to those deserving of it, although im sure those receiving such blessings were happy top have done so.

Tell me this - if Christ were selling prosperity, why did the first century church continue following him? They certainly weren't prosporing - unless you consider being broke, homeless, crucified, and beheaded prosperous.
 
3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.

4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.

5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
 
soooo, your position is all of the apostles were tax collectors or wealthy? Are you serious? That's not even remotely true. Where in the world did you dig that up?
No. One of them was a tax collector. Most were business men who actually were not poor. Poverty was looked down upon in that society at that time. Those that were impoverished actually looked for ways to better their lives (unlike many "poor" today- thus the initial popularity of Jesus). Only those that were wealthy had the ability to read or write. Only people with $$$ were educated during those times.

The disciples were not poor. No matter what dogma you've been made to believe.
 
3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.

4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.

5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

So they were stingy like most Christians today. And they told him to get up and help himself in order to receive. Receive what?? A benefit from God. Of course thunder doesnt believe that's what Christianity is about...getting and receiving.... So I don't know what you guys are trying to debate now.
 
To respond to your other post, every miracle Christ performed was for the purpose of confirming His own divine nature. Every. Single. One. It wasn't for the purpose of providing a benefit or gain to those deserving of it, although im sure those receiving such blessings were happy top have done so.

Tell me this - if Christ were selling prosperity, why did the first century church continue following him? They certainly weren't prosporing - unless you consider being broke, homeless, crucified, and beheaded prosperous.

The answer you seek is obvious. Because most were poor and wanted the chance to prosper. That's why they were following him. They wanted something out of it. What's the purpose of following anything if receiving is not the end desire. Christ was promising abundance if they followed him. Amazing that a so called Christian doesn't understand that basic concept. Hilarious actually.
 
To respond to your other post, every miracle Christ performed was for the purpose of confirming His own divine nature.

QUOTE]

You said this prior......" Second, Christ performed miracles to glorify the Father, not to make himself "look" good".........


Completely contradictory statements. Again. Not really surprised.
 
So they were stingy like most Christians today. And they told him to get up and help himself in order to receive. Receive what?? A benefit from God. Of course thunder doesnt believe that's what Christianity is about...getting and receiving.... So I don't know what you guys are trying to debate now.

You, as usual, resort to lies. Christians give 3x more as a percentage of their income to charity than non believers. That takes care of your first lie. Secondly "they" did not tell him to get up and help himself in order to receive. They said exactly what I quoted. That takes care of your second lie. You've done nothing but lie or attempt to deceive since entering this discussion.
 
No. One of them was a tax collector. Most were business men who actually were not poor. Poverty was looked down upon in that society at that time. Those that were impoverished actually looked for ways to better their lives (unlike many "poor" today- thus the initial popularity of Jesus). Only those that were wealthy had the ability to read or write. Only people with $$$ were educated during those times.

The disciples were not poor. No matter what dogma you've been made to believe.

I'll ask argument again, where in the world did you get that info? this is literally the only time I have every heard anyone make that assumption/argument
 
Is Osteen's whole message false doctrine or is there any hope of him getting in line with the truth if he just incorporates maybe 25% of "you're going to hell if you don't do this" into his sermons?
 
I'll ask argument again, where in the world did you get that info? this is literally the only time I have every heard anyone make that assumption/argument

I would take you a lot more serious is if you asked a question that was written coherently. Nevertheless, I will decipher what I think you are trying to ask.

Are you really surprised you've never been told this in a Christian church? Seriously? What would it have done to your belief if the church told you that Jesus and the disciples were wealthy, influential, educated, business men/ leaders, looking to simply build a spiritual following in order to improve the worldly lives of the downtrodden of that time? Many books have been written on Jewish history of that time. They outline very clearly that educated Jews of that time were wealthy Jews. Education was reserved for those that had the money, power, connections to get it. Those without educations (no ability to read/write) were most likely poor/impoverished (but looking for guidance on how to escape their challenges).

Jesus (again, the mythical jesus you believe in) needed Apostles with the ability to read, write, and speak coherently. He wasn't picking an average poor bum off the street to spread his message of receiving "eternal life" (aka ETERNAL ABUNDANCE/PROSPERITY ). I would actually suggest that if Jesus did, in fact, exist the way you and Greed believe.......he too would have grown up in wealth. Joseph and Mary were not poor....(remember they were actually called to Nazareth to "pay taxes" to the Romans). Those that actually possessed a skill or craft at that time actually lived in abundance, had money and were able to pay taxes.......thus their ability to actually look for and pay for an Inn once arriving in the city of Nazareth.
 
No. One of them was a tax collector. Most were business men who actually were not poor. Poverty was looked down upon in that society at that time. Those that were impoverished actually looked for ways to better their lives (unlike many "poor" today- thus the initial popularity of Jesus). Only those that were wealthy had the ability to read or write. Only people with $$$ were educated during those times.

The disciples were not poor. No matter what dogma you've been made to believe.

Where did I say they were poor? They had jobs. 7 were likely fisherman, 1 was a tax collector, and there's not a lot of info on what the other 4 were. That being said, being a fisherman does not make one "wealthy." In short, that had jobs, supported themselves and their families, but they certainly were not rich in any material sense of the word.
 
The answer you seek is obvious. Because most were poor and wanted the chance to prosper. That's why they were following him. They wanted something out of it. What's the purpose of following anything if receiving is not the end desire. Christ was promising abundance if they followed him. Amazing that a so called Christian doesn't understand that basic concept. Hilarious actually.

What's hillarious is that you follow up your argument that the apostles were poor, with this gem, admitting that they weren't. Do you even try to keep track of what you are arguing? It's like the old saying goes - you can't argue with stupid.
 
Is Osteen's whole message false doctrine or is there any hope of him getting in line with the truth if he just incorporates maybe 25% of "you're going to hell if you don't do this" into his sermons?

That's between Osteen and God.
 
How much condemnation would Osteen have to incorporate to satisfy your requirements? You're the one who called it false doctrine. I've seen many youtube comments claiming the same thing, so you're far from the only one.

I just wonder how far he is from the truth. What if he's leading me to the devil? Maybe we can nip it in the bud now before I get too caught up in his happy message.
 
I would take you a lot more serious is if you asked a question that was written coherently. Nevertheless, I will decipher what I think you are trying to ask.

Are you really surprised you've never been told this in a Christian church? Seriously? What would it have done to your belief if the church told you that Jesus and the disciples were wealthy, influential, educated, business men/ leaders, looking to simply build a spiritual following in order to improve the worldly lives of the downtrodden of that time? Many books have been written on Jewish history of that time. They outline very clearly that educated Jews of that time were wealthy Jews. Education was reserved for those that had the money, power, connections to get it. Those without educations (no ability to read/write) were most likely poor/impoverished (but looking for guidance on how to escape their challenges).

Which books? Which ones have you read? Remember, you are citing these as source material, so it shouldn't be hard for you to grab a couple off the shelf and quote them. I'm guessing you've read a few internet posts and/or blogs that make these claims, and are merely adopting them as your own. Amirite?
 
How much condemnation would Osteen have to incorporate to satisfy your requirements? You're the one who called it false doctrine. I've seen many youtube comments claiming the same thing, so you're far from the only one.

I just wonder how far he is from the truth. What if he's leading me to the devil? Maybe we can nip it in the bud now before I get too caught up in his happy message.

I'm not sure I can dumb it down any more for you. If you can't understand my criticism with Osteen's teachings from my prior posts, you probably aren't going to.

As for condemnation, you are the only one that keeps trumpeting that tune in this thread.
 
You, as usual, resort to lies. Christians give 3x more as a percentage of their income to charity than non believers. That takes care of your first lie. Secondly "they" did not tell him to get up and help himself in order to receive. They said exactly what I quoted. That takes care of your second lie. You've done nothing but lie or attempt to deceive since entering this discussion.

Is that what the cult tells you to say?

What would be the point of "getting up"? Is the ability to "walk" as Peter commanded, not receiving a benefit one did not have prior? Problem with you Greed is that when you really run out of ways to discuss a topic you resort to simply claiming others lie. You display that judgmental tendency I mentioned earlier in the thread. Again. Not surprised. Its what Christians who believe in an infallible book usually do. They intentionally ignore the actual historical events/context and how it relates to what is being discussed.
 
I'm not sure I can dumb it down any more for you. If you can't understand my criticism with Osteen's teachings from my prior posts, you probably aren't going to.

I understand it just fine. Just trying to get you to come right out with it. You're beating around the bush.

It's false doctrine because it doesn't involve the normal kicks in the balls you receive when you go to a "real" church on Sunday mornings.

The threats. "Do this or you're going to hell." "Pay 10% or you'll burn in hell." "Go force it down other people's throats or God will cast you into the fire." "Wailing and gnashing of teeth."

I've been to church. I've seen it. And quit subjecting myself to it.
 
Which books? Which ones have you read? Remember, you are citing these as source material, so it shouldn't be hard for you to grab a couple off the shelf and quote them. I'm guessing you've read a few internet posts and/or blogs that make these claims, and are merely adopting them as your own. Amirite?

You arrogance betrays you. (Thought I would use your line)

Millionaire from Nazareth; The Millionaires of Genesis; The Dynamic Laws of Prosperity; The Dynamic Laws of Prayer; Thou Shall Prosper; As a man thinketh; Richest man in Babylon; Wealth, War, Wisdom;..........They would be a good list for you to start with. I've read them all over the years. Valuable prospective on spirituality, wealth, history, and overall- personal growth. Clearly something you could benefit from.
 
Ah, now I get it. You are a devout follower of Catherine Ponder - a forerunner to Osteen and his ilk. That's why you are so defensive on this topic. Catherine Ponder is the L. Ron Hubbard of Christianity. Reading a series of books by someone with an obvious agenda doesn't make you an expert on the financial history of the early church. It just means you've bought her version of history hook, line, and sinker.
 
Any true Christian needs to just read Genesis, Exodus, Revelations to learn how to live like a Christian to get closer to God and have eternal life. Granted everything in the bible was pieced together for a reason but pay attention to those 3 books and you will be fine
 
The fact that you people allow yourself to listen to someone else preach you the word proves how lost each of you are in the eyes of God. God and the disciples preached getting close to god through prayer and inner belief and not looking towards man to get you closer with God.
 
Any true Christian needs to just read Genesis, Exodus, Revelations to learn how to live like a Christian to get closer to God and have eternal life. Granted everything in the bible was pieced together for a reason but pay attention to those 3 books and you will be fine

Wow......A lot of vengeance, damnation, and fear in those three books. I thought Christianity was about love?
 
It is about love but for the most part its living a certain way to escape Gods wrath towards the sodemites and non-believer. Plus the Roman Catholic Church put language in the bible to misguide people towards Christianity because they believe you repent your sins to some priest and all sins are forgiven. But honestly you can see a lot of the devils work within the Catholic church. And if you know your bible, you will know what im talking about.
 
God and the disciples preached getting close to god through prayer and inner belief and not looking towards man to get you closer with God.

Yeah, but if I do that now it'll only be because you, a man, told me to. So now that's out of the cards for anyone who read it.

All doomed.
 
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